East Coast Supercharging network

[GreenMonster]

For general interest, data for any zip code is here but uses older data from 2009:
How clean is the electricity I use? - Power Profiler | Clean Energy | US EPA

Thanks Alset. According to that site, the fuel mix for Delmarva Power (which supplies power for Newark, Delaware) is 44% coal, 43% nuclear, 17% gas, and the rest is "other". Just something to consider next time you are charging your Tesla at one of these stations. I prefer to charge my Tesla at home, where I have 100% clean power.

Assuming the SuperCharger in Delaware gets its power from the grid, it would take a very large number of solar panels to offset the energy used. For example, I have 36 solar panels installed on the roof of my home. But even on a good (i.e. sunny) day, the most it'll generate this time of year is about 30kwh/day. On a very cloudy day, it could drop down to 2 or 3kwh/day, a 90% drop. And there's 0kwh generated after sunset. So to charge several 85kwh batteries (Model S) per day to even 50% would require a huge number of solar panels to offset that amount of energy, multiplied by the 4 SC units at the Delaware location. When I visited this location recently, I walked around the site and didn't notice any solar panels installed anywhere. Perhaps they were in a remote (or hidden) location or perhaps they haven't been installed yet. Elon Musk did an interview on the Jay Leno show a few months ago and implied that the forthcoming SuperCharger installations would be solar-powered. Perhaps he was referring just to the California installations. Or perhaps this is something to be added down the road.

 

[Robert.Boston]

A Super Charger requires "ramping up natural gas power plants" to function? No wonder the grid seems to be stretched so thin If the grid is so pushed to the edge of capacity, then multiple functioning solar arrays, while sitting and not charging cars, and co-located adjacent to Super Chargers, may have the opposite effect of allowing the ramping down of natural gas-fired power plants!

Perhaps we're talking past each other. There's nothing unusual or scary about 'ramping up' a generator -- it happens constantly. Remember, the energy injected into an electrical system must match, almost exactly, the instantaneous load on the system (including losses). Any mismatch between load and generation results in a change in the system's electrical frequency; if there's not enough generation, the frequency drops. Every bulk power system has one more more power plants sitting at partial output. As the load on the system fluctuates, the output of these "regulation" generators rises or falls to keep the frequency very close to 60Hz (or 50Hz in some parts of the world). This occurs automatically (on most grids) through Automatic Generation Control devices on generating units, which detect minor changes in frequency and ramp the unit accordingly.

If you turn on a 60W light bulb, that won't cause a big enough frequency dip to trigger increased generation. A 90kW load, though, will almost surely trigger an offsetting increase in generation somewhere. That's all that "ramping" means.

 

[mknox]

A Super Charger requires "ramping up natural gas power plants" to function? No wonder the grid seems to be stretched so thin If the grid is so pushed to the edge of capacity, then multiple functioning solar arrays, while sitting and not charging cars, and co-located adjacent to Super Chargers, may have the opposite effect of allowing the ramping down of natural gas-fired power plants!

Utility generation is a complex exercise of balancing system-wide generation against system-wide demand on a minute by minute basis. Typically there is "baseload" generation for the always there load, and these are usually nuclear, hydro and sometimes coal. Gas-fired plants are sometimes called "peaker" plants because they can be spooled up relatively quickly to meet a rising system demand, and then shut back down when the demand subsides. This is at the system level. It's not like someone plugging in a Model S at a Supercharger is going to immediately result in some gas-fired plant coming on line. If you're Supercharging at night or on the weekend, it's likely the power is coming primarily from baseload generation. If you charge during peak demand hours, then the power will be from a combination of baseload and peaker generation. The solar farms will displace the energy (kWh) and thereby displace the fuel that would have otherwise been spent to generate that power.

 

[Larry Chanin]

According to that site, the fuel mix for Delmarva Power (which supplies power for Newark, Delaware) is 44% coal, 43% nuclear, 17% gas, and the rest is "other". Just something to consider next time you are charging your Tesla at one of these stations. I prefer to charge my Tesla at home, where I have 100% clean power.

Of course the purpose of a Supercharger is to support long road trips when you are away from home.

For a local not taking a road trip who likes to frequent a Supercharger station to harvest free energy, I doubt your appeal for altruism would have much effect. :wink:

Larry

 

[brianman]

Correct; power goes onto the grid in much the same way that water goes into a bathtub. Pouring a flask of holy water into the bathtub, and drawing out a flask of water elsewhere, doesn't get the same water back. In the case of power, at least, it's completely irrelevant (not to mention physically impossible) to "sort" power; the power grid is not like the ethernet, where packets can be routed from source to sink.

Love the metaphor (solar power / holy water).

 

[dpeilow]

Thanks Alset. According to that site, the fuel mix for Delmarva Power (which supplies power for Newark, Delaware) is 44% coal, 43% nuclear, 17% gas, and the rest is "other".

= 104%...

 

[jkirkebo]

If you turn on a 60W light bulb, that won't cause a big enough frequency dip to trigger increased generation. A 90kW load, though, will almost surely trigger an offsetting increase in generation somewhere. That's all that "ramping" means.

90kW is nothing. I drive electric commuter trains for a living, when I push the stick all the way forward as much as 9000kW may start flowing to the motors. That is as much as 100 SuperChargers at full tilt...

 

[Robert.Boston]

90kW is nothing. I drive electric commuter trains for a living, when I push the stick all the way forward as much as 9000kW may start flowing to the motors. That is as much as 100 SuperChargers at full tilt...

Yep, that's serious power, and you can bet that when you start a 9MW flow, there's a compensating variation at some generator -- though, in Norway, it's probably hydro.

There's a reason those electric trains are on isolated power systems: The NYC subway cars runs on 625V DC, fed from 214 substations, isolating these loads from the ConEd distribution system. (Peak load is nearly 500 MW, which sounds like a lot but that's less than 4% of NYC peak load.) If you didn't have them isolated, you'd be getting unacceptable voltage/frequency swings to other distribution customer.

 

[mknox]

There's a reason those electric trains are on isolated power systems: The NYC subway cars runs on 625V DC, fed from 214 substations, isolating these loads from the ConEd distribution system. (Peak load is nearly 500 MW, which sounds like a lot but that's less than 4% of NYC peak load.) If you didn't have them isolated, you'd be getting unacceptable voltage/frequency swings to other distribution customer.

Toronto electric streetcars are also fed from dedicated 600v DC circuits. I remember years ago when I worked for Toronto Hydro seeing the old mercury rectifiers - they were like something out of science fiction! The streetcar feeders were also either unfused, or fused at a very high capacity because when a line came down, they would put on a HUGE light show of sparks and flames dancing all over the ground until power was cut off at a station.

 

[jkirkebo]

Toronto electric streetcars are also fed from dedicated 600v DC circuits. I remember years ago when I worked for Toronto Hydro seeing the old mercury rectifiers - they were like something out of science fiction! The streetcar feeders were also either unfused, or fused at a very high capacity because when a line came down, they would put on a HUGE light show of sparks and flames dancing all over the ground until power was cut off at a station.

Yeah, I tore down the 16kV overhead line once, landed on the top of the train. Some serious fireworks that. Also made a few new 2" (or so) holes on the roof of the train...

 

[dpeilow]

90kW is nothing. I drive electric commuter trains for a living, when I push the stick all the way forward as much as 9000kW may start flowing to the motors. That is as much as 100 SuperChargers at full tilt...

9MW from a commuter train? Are you Flirting with us? That's insane...

 

[jkirkebo]

9MW from a commuter train? Are you Flirting with us? That's insane...

Hehe, nice pun

9MW is from a double train set (211m/692ft.long). Each of our 5-car Stadler Flirt sets has 6 driven axles with 750kW motors on each, so 4500kW per train set. Normally they are driven single or double, but a triple set is possible (13500kW....).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:NSB_BMb_74501_1.jpg

 

[jenga]

More info please! Did you charge to range mode? How fast did you drive? How many miles of range did you have left when you got to the next SC? I'm interested in making the drive from Baltimore to Hartford next month and am still a little nervous about the 200 mile distance between Milford and Newark.

I charged in Range mode for the entire trip to alleviate any range anxiety I had. I stayed below 65 mph the entire trip. The only "close" call I had was southbound between CT and DE when I arrived with 25 miles of range. Again, this was literally my first trip driving the model S and I will get more comfortable with the SOC as I drive it more. Surprisingly, I had 54 miles of range heading north between the DE and CT stations. I think I had a better feel for the vehicle by then and adjusted my driving for range. I can almost guarantee you success for your drive north if you charge in Range mode in DE and don't exceed 70 mph. Good luck and tell us how the trip turns out!

 

[Doug_G]

I charged in Range mode for the entire trip to alleviate any range anxiety I had. I stayed below 65 mph the entire trip. The only "close" call I had was southbound between CT and DE when I arrived with 25 miles of range. Again, this was literally my first trip driving the model S and I will get more comfortable with the SOC as I drive it more. Surprisingly, I had 54 miles of range heading north between the DE and CT stations. I think I had a better feel for the vehicle by then and adjusted my driving for range. I can almost guarantee you success for your drive north if you charge in Range mode in DE and don't exceed 70 mph. Good luck and tell us how the trip turns out!

I am for a 30 km (19 miles) reserve when driving a long leg. That's enough reserve if there's a detour or some other problem. Also I keep an eye on my reserve as I go along, comparing Projected with the GPS distance-to-go. If the delta starts dropping then I ease my speed down a little. Sometimes I even get to do the opposite!

 

[digitaltim]

1st charge today at the DE stop.

I pulled in with ~150 miles rated range and added ~65 miles in 30 minutes. The charge started pulling at 122A but tapered down to 74A as the SOC increased.

This stop is going to come in handy.

 

[Mike_Schlechter]

I've been thinking about locations for the East, at least in New England, and imagine (hope!) that near where 91 and 90 intersect and 91 and 89 seem logical. With the Milford, CT, location I bet that would let you get to Montreal from DC or Albany, NY. Add something on 89 near PA, and you have a huge area covered.

As for North of Boston, I would bet where 95 and 93 come together near Portsmouth, NH would let you get to Portland, ME and beyond.

Pipe dream? Maybe. But makes sense to me.

 

[Tempus]

and in the other direction, south of DC, i'd love to see them hit both the 95 corridor and the 85 (south through Charlotte to Atlanta). That's one of my concerns is that they just hit the 95 branch in the early rollout, and miss the other major route. (somewhat selfish as i'd like to be able to visit relatives in Charlotte from DC using the superchargers - but there seem to be quite a few owners/res holders on that path as well).

 

[RDoc]

As has been mentioned before, placing one at the Sagamore Bridge rest stop at the entrance to Cape Cod would be great. It may sound a bit too local, but a lot of people visit the Cape from NY and Canada in the summer.

 

[aaron.s]

Excellent idea!

I go up to Provincetown every summer. Live in Westchester, NY - a 280 mile drive. Milford Supercharger is 55 miles from my home. That leaves 225 to get there which I can do on a standard charge. Plan is to to a Standard charge at home - drive the 55 miles to the supercharger, charge again to standard mode then drive the rest of the way.

In all actuality - having a Supercharger in RI or on the CT/RI order would be good for Cape Cod and to get further up to NH and Maine....

Aaron

 

[aviators99]

Excellent idea!

I go up to Provincetown every summer. Live in Westchester, NY - a 280 mile drive. Milford Supercharger is 55 miles from my home. That leaves 225 to get there which I can do on a standard charge. Plan is to to a Standard charge at home - drive the 55 miles to the supercharger, charge again to standard mode then drive the rest of the way.

In all actuality - having a Supercharger in RI or on the CT/RI order would be good for Cape Cod and to get further up to NH and Maine....

Aaron

I would *not* could on being able to get 225 on a standard charge. I did 225 on a range charge this weekend, with 50 miles to spare, but it was 70-80 degrees outside with no hills at all.