Edmunds Model S Long-Term Test

[cwerdna]

Factually not true. Replacements for noise were for noise, not because the car lost propulsion.

Huh?

In the vast majority of drive unit replacement cases I've seen here on TMC, they've been replacements for noise, NOT loss of propulsion. Something was defective but I would NOT count this set as drive unit "failure".

There's a smaller set that have been replaced for loss of propulsion, which I would consider to be a failure.

For the Edmunds car, the 1st and 3rd replacement were for noise. The 2nd was for failure (Stuck on the Freeway - 2013 Tesla Model S Long-Term Road Test which led to Is the Third Drive Unit the Charm? - 2013 Tesla Model S Long-Term Road Test).

From the last URL:

Vince, our service advisor, was great about giving me updates throughout the course of the day. "We're getting a bunch of faults from the drive unit and main battery pack," said Vince. "Our technicians are taking a look at it now. I'll call you when I have more information."

It sounded serious.

He called back about an hour later and said they would be replacing the drive unit and the high-voltage battery assembly. I asked Vince what caused the problems, but he said they don't open up the batteries at the service center. Like most warranty issues on new cars, the parts are replaced at the dealer and the old ones are sent to corporate headquarters for the engineers to study and see what went wrong. The service invoice didn't give me much more to go on, "During vehicle logs review, found fault related to internal drive unit failure. Replaced complete drive unit assembly per TDS case #9571."

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Unlike every other car manufacturer Tesla has no separate powertrain warranty at all. The powertrain is only covered under the original 4 year or 50,000 mile, whichever comes first, new vehicle limited warranty. Once you are out of warranty, if you need a new one it's going to cost $15-$20k (Springfield quoted me this number) and the new one does not come with any warranty.

Actually, I was surprised to see Edmunds make a similar statement to the above at Drive Unit IV: The Milling - 2013 Tesla Model S Long-Term Road Test.

While it is true that most automakers include a powertrain warranty that's longer than the basic "bumper to bumper" warranty, there are a number of them that are like Tesla, such as BMW, Audi and Mercedes, at least according to Warranty and Roadside Assistance Coverage -- Edmunds Auto Warranty Tips .

Perhaps it's more of a European car vs. non-European car thing? Most of the American, Japanese and Korean automakers give you a longer powertrain warranty than basic warranty and have been doing so for ages.

 

[Red Sage]

cwerdna: I'm pretty sure those notes from the Service Center were shorthand for 'Failure to Pass Testing'. That is, the audio test that they submitted to Engineering. The Drive Unit itself did not fail -- the car was driven across country, twice, and then to a Service Center -- if the car could move under its own power, the Drive Unit had not failed.

 

[brianman]

That's why I got the extended warranty.

/envy
My state sucks.

 

[gg_got_a_tesla]

/envy
My state sucks.

Well, the $10,000 or more that you saved by not paying sales tax on your MS purchase when compared to most of us would go a long way towards paying for that drive unit replacement once out of warranty!

 

[JRP3]

I notice Seeking Alpha has just put up a FUD article about drive train failures.

 

[nleggatt]

I notice Seeking Alpha has just put up a FUD article about drive train failures.

Could you explain what FUD is? Just because you don't agree with the article doesn't make it not true

In fact some negative pressure on tesla to fix this problem might help. I'm running up on my warranty and the only reason I feel pressures to but the extended is because I'm going on number 4 drive unit and this last one lasted maybe 1,000 km.... Soooo where is this seeking alpha article in corrrect...

Praise of a company is only as valuable and the honest criticism when it too is do. Otherways your drinking cool aide and your praise is not valued (not saying that directly to this OP - just saying as a blanket statement)

 

[stopcrazypp]

Magnifying something that statistically has very low occurrence (esp. if it is no worse than an ICE vehicle) is FUD. This is no different than what happened with the crash fires.

The fact that both authors who wrote recently about this "issue" are TSLA shorters already tells you their motivation.

 

[JST]

Magnifying something that statistically has very low occurrence (esp. if it is no worse than an ICE vehicle) is FUD. This is no different than what happened with the crash fires.

The fact that both authors who wrote recently about this "issue" are TSLA shorters already tells you their motivation.

Do we know what the occurrence is? Or how it compares to similar issues in ICE vehicles? I mean, I don't, and I haven't seen that information anywhere. Moreover, it would likely be almost impossible for anyone other than Tesla to collect.

Until recently, all of the Model S vehicles out there were under warranty, so this issue was mostly an inconvenience. But with the cars aging out of warranty, the question of whether owners are going to be stuck with a 5 figure repair bill is pretty salient.

The fact that some cars have gone through multiple units is also troubling, because it
suggests either that Tesla doesn't know what's wrong or isn't able to fix it in all cases.

Really, the short term solution is obvious--like BMW did with the E46 M3 and the N54 HPFP, they should announce an extension of the warranty for this issue.

 

[nleggatt]

Magnifying something that statistically has very low occurrence (esp. if it is no worse than an ICE vehicle) is FUD. This is no different than what happened with the crash fires.

The fact that both authors who wrote recently about this "issue" are TSLA shorters already tells you their motivation.

How do we know it's statistically low? According to my service center it's actually quite common...

 

[JST]

One more thought--the way I hope they *don't* handle it is the way Porsche did with the M96 IMS bearing failures, which was basically to cover replacements under warranty but then to deny there was an issue once the cars were out of warranty.

 

[TSLAopt]

Magnifying something that statistically has very low occurrence (esp. if it is no worse than an ICE vehicle) is FUD. This is no different than what happened with the crash fires.

The fact that both authors who wrote recently about this "issue" are TSLA shorters already tells you their motivation.

This

 

[JST]

This

That may be the motivation of the SA piece, but it's not the motivation of Edmunds, presumably, nor is it the motivation of the folks on this board who have had one or more replacements.

I don't think we should blow this issue out of proportion--but I also don't think we can pretend there's nothing there. Clearly, *something* is happening.

 

[dsm363]

Something's happening here. What it is isn't exactly clear.

 

[anticitizen13.7]

Magnifying something that statistically has very low occurrence (esp. if it is no worse than an ICE vehicle) is FUD. This is no different than what happened with the crash fires.

The fact that both authors who wrote recently about this "issue" are TSLA shorters already tells you their motivation.

This

That may be the motivation of the SA piece, but it's not the motivation of Edmunds, presumably, nor is it the motivation of the folks on this board who have had one or more replacements.

I don't think we should blow this issue out of proportion--but I also don't think we can pretend there's nothing there. Clearly, *something* is happening.

I'm personally interested in the following information:

(1) % of powertrains exhibiting enough noise to warrant replacement.

(2) % of powertrains that fail.

(3) The causes of each type of problem, and how the problem can be mitigated.

(4) Actual cost of Out of Warranty (OOW) replacement. Not an estimate. A real bill.

(5) Possibility of warranty extension.

From my own experience, a company like Honda will extend warranty under a voluntary program if a certain component causes long-term trouble. Examples include the Honda 5-Speed automatic transmission from the early 2000's (Accord, Acura TL, Odyssey minivan), which suffered spectacular failure rates, and the much less serious rear chrome trim corrosion in some Honda Civics.

Newcomers (relatively speaking) like Hyundai have offered very long powertrain warranties (10 years, 100k miles) to reassure customers. If Tesla does discover an issue with the PEM, I hope that they would do something to reassure Model S owners.

IMO, a vehicle powertrain should be engineered to last at least 10 years and/or 150k miles without major repair. That's been the Honda benchmark, although they haven't always met it.

 

[stopcrazypp]

Do we know what the occurrence is? Or how it compares to similar issues in ICE vehicles? I mean, I don't, and I haven't seen that information anywhere. Moreover, it would likely be almost impossible for anyone other than Tesla to collect.

I don't know for this particular issue, but I do know if the Model S doesn't get at least average reliability (AKA the same as the average ICE vehicle) it would not get a spot as a top pick as Consumer Report's best overall car for 2014.

As for how Tesla handles things, I think Tesla eventually needs to design their drivetrain to be more modular and easier to do repairs at service centers (or at least diagnose). Most of the fear of owners is because even for what might be small problems with the drivetrain, it may be necessary to swap out the whole drivetrain. This is completely different with an ICE, where individual parts are replaced.

The other way is working out a "core charge" scheme that reflects the severity of the particular issue (although how to do the estimate beforehand is going to be difficult if the service center can't do an accurate diagnostic for problems within the drivetrain). However, if they can work out a viable battery swap scheme, I'm sure they can do so for the drivetrain too.

 

[Red Sage]

Living in Los Angeles is weird. You drive around town to get just about everywhere. If you take the time to notice, the landscape of the city is just... strange. That's because at every intersection, in every block, in every shopping center, or business park, large or small, you see the same types of business over, and over, and over again.

Auto repair shop... Tire shop... Wheels & Rims... Auto Stereo... Auto Parts store... Transmission... Smog... Body Shop... Brakes... Oil Filter Lube...

All this seems to reinforce the notion that a car should be a rolling conveyance for spare parts.

I know people who have resigned themselves over the course of decades to simply being used to buying new parts for their car all the time. They may not have ever bought a new car in their lives. But they have bought enough parts to put together a couple dozen of them.

Gas stations... Paid Parking Lots... Drive Thru eateries... New Car dealerships... Drive Thru drugstores... Used Car lots... Drive Thru dairies...

So much of this town is based around servicing an automobile, or those who are operating them.

I really don't think that Tesla Motors should succumb to the remove & replace bit-by-bit repairs that are so commonplace among ICE. I think it is better that they keep things the way they are... as a single drive unit module. Drop it, move it out of the way, lift another into place. Sorted.

It's a different kind of car. I don't have a problem with it being serviced differently too.

 

[JST]

Living in Los Angeles is weird. You drive around town to get just about everywhere. If you take the time to notice, the landscape of the city is just... strange. That's because at every intersection, in every block, in every shopping center, or business park, large or small, you see the same types of business over, and over, and over again.

Auto repair shop... Tire shop... Wheels & Rims... Auto Stereo... Auto Parts store... Transmission... Smog... Body Shop... Brakes... Oil Filter Lube...

All this seems to reinforce the notion that a car should be a rolling conveyance for spare parts.

I know people who have resigned themselves over the course of decades to simply being used to buying new parts for their car all the time. They may not have ever bought a new car in their lives. But they have bought enough parts to put together a couple dozen of them.

Gas stations... Paid Parking Lots... Drive Thru eateries... New Car dealerships... Drive Thru drugstores... Used Car lots... Drive Thru dairies...

So much of this town is based around servicing an automobile, or those who are operating them.

I really don't think that Tesla Motors should succumb to the remove & replace bit-by-bit repairs that are so commonplace among ICE. I think it is better that they keep things the way they are... as a single drive unit module. Drop it, move it out of the way, lift another into place. Sorted.

It's a different kind of car. I don't have a problem with it being serviced differently too.

All of that makes sense--as long as that replacement doesn't cost 15 grand.

 

[JRP3]

And there is no reason it should since they aren't installing new units and aren't scrapping the old ones.

 

[ChadS]

Indeed. This is how Tesla is handling Roadster batteries - even though a full replacement is $36k (I hope the 2014 surprise for Roadster owners is lowering that price!) I just got a new (well, remanufactured) battery - with a significantly higher CAC and a 1-year warranty - and only paid $4k. They only charge you as if they replaced the broken part, which is my case was just one sheet. I have a hard time imagining they wouldn't do the same thing with the powertrains - they will replace the whole thing because it all bolts in and out together, but only charge you for what was broken.

$15k is a scary-sounding number - and it might really cost that if for some reason out of warranty you had to buy a new motor, gearbox and inverter all at the same time - but so far nobody has paid that and I doubt anybody ever will.

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I don't know for this particular issue, but I do know if the Model S doesn't get at least average reliability (AKA the same as the average ICE vehicle) it would not get a spot as a top pick as Consumer Report's best overall car for 2014.

Correct. For both 2012 and 2013 models, the Model S got the "best" reliability rating for the drivetrain. Even though the 2013 models dropped to "average" on climate control and "worst" on "squeaks" and "body hardware", CR still rated the predicted reliability of new cars at 17% above average.

Yes, this is a snapshot from the past and things could have gotten worse (though most here are assuming it was worse for the early cars - incidentally, no problems or noise in my VIN #112). It is true that CR reliability surveys don't cover all cars and aren't perfect. But I think they're about an order of magnitude better than trying to figure out what's going on by perusing forum postings. Any car forum has a long list of problems, and no way to see how many owners are not having problems. Determining a failure rate here is not just difficult, it's impossible.

 

[tomsax]

In preparing my slides for TMC Connect, I was surprised to see that 14.8% (38 out of 256) of the participants in the Plug In America Model S Battery Survey reported having their motor replaced. This compares to 3.4% (5 out of 148) motor replacements reported on the Roadster survey. The surveys are completely opt-in, so there could be sample bias in the data.

It would be helpful to get reports from more owners, whether you've had drivetrain issues or not: Model S Survey Form and Roadster Survey Form