Edmunds Model S Long-Term Test

[K5ING]

I really have to wonder why in the hell an electric motor needs to be replaced 3 times. As much as I am a fan of Tesla, this sort of failure rate is terrible.

Yes, it's only one car. But it makes me wonder if there's some issue with the motor manufacturing. Did the Roadster have this issue? Tesla cannot have this kind of failure rate going forward. The buyers of Audis and BMWs might expect a luxury car to have high maintenance and frequent repairs. The Honda/Toyota crowd will absolutely not tolerate this.

I think the Edmund's car should be put in the same category as rental or demo cars. The regular private owner will probably beat the heck out of his new Tesla for the first month or so, but then settle down into regular driving. The Edmund's car (and CU's for that matter) is driven by many individuals, most of whom are car enthusiasts, so it gets beaten and "tried out" by many people over it's life. This may explain the driveline and tire problems they have been experiencing, or at least some of them.

 

[abasile]

I think the Edmund's car should be put in the same category as rental or demo cars. The regular private owner will probably beat the heck out of his new Tesla for the first month or so, but then settle down into regular driving. The Edmund's car (and CU's for that matter) is driven by many individuals, most of whom are car enthusiasts, so it gets beaten and "tried out" by many people over it's life. This may explain the driveline and tire problems they have been experiencing, or at least some of them.

I'm sure there's some truth to that, but really, an EV drivetrain should be durable enough to take that kind of abuse. In normal use, I'd expect a good EV drivetrain to last many hundreds of thousands of miles.

 

[brianman]

I'm sure there's some truth to that, but really, an EV drivetrain should be durable enough to take that kind of abuse. In normal use, I'd expect a good EV drivetrain to last many hundreds of thousands of miles.

Before deliveries began, I remember "a couple million miles" being suggested (and agreed by many).

 

[Zaxxon]

I really have to wonder why in the hell an electric motor needs to be replaced 3 times. As much as I am a fan of Tesla, this sort of failure rate is terrible.

Yes, it's only one car. But it makes me wonder if there's some issue with the motor manufacturing. Did the Roadster have this issue? Tesla cannot have this kind of failure rate going forward. The buyers of Audis and BMWs might expect a luxury car to have high maintenance and frequent repairs. The Honda/Toyota crowd will absolutely not tolerate this.

Concur. As much as the $600 annual inspection charge is a poor example to set when simultaneously claiming that EVs have lower service profiles than ICEs, this sort of thing is absolutely incompatible with that claim. I give Tesla a lot of wiggle room here since the S is their first ground-up car and it's still quite new--but this has to improve, and markedly, before Gen III hits the market. Ideally those annual visit charges need to drop precipitously, as well.

 

[brianman]

S is their first ground-up car

I'm not a fan of grinding up Model S (or Roadster for that matter).

I make no judgments of people grinding in Model S, but am a little worried for people trying it in the Roadster.

 

[Zaxxon]

Ha.

 

[jerry33]

I'm not a fan of grinding up Model S (or Roadster for that matter).

I make no judgments of people grinding in Model S, but am a little worried for people trying it in the Roadster.

Still, I suppose that would be one way to keep sales up should they ever start to fall off.

 

[nleggatt]

I'm sure there's some truth to that, but really, an EV drivetrain should be durable enough to take that kind of abuse. In normal use, I'd expect a good EV drivetrain to last many hundreds of thousands of miles.

Tesla most certainly has a drive train (trane) / drive unit problem. I'm on number 3 and it looks like will be going to number 4. My car has 75k km on it, and I know other owners who have also had 3,4,5 replacements. From what I hear it is more common then you'd think. Its sad really, It's like having a great car, "oh this car is the most beautiful car in the world, no troubles really, no maintenance, fast, affordable.... oh, you just can't turn it on... they are still working on that". My example is to illustrate how it's one part, but it kinda ruins all those great items when I have to take the car in AGAIN!

 

[NigelM]

Let's not forget that Tesla's current policy is to replace the drive-unit/battery pack/whatever rather than having techs repair anything. That makes sense for a company producing their first medium-volume vehicle; but the product will get better as they look at the parts coming back in and eventually there should be less and less replacements and they might even change the repair policy.

 

[jerry33]

Let's not forget that Tesla's current policy is to replace the drive-unit/battery pack/whatever rather than having techs repair anything. That makes sense for a company producing their first medium-volume vehicle; but the product will get better as they look at the parts coming back in and eventually there should be less and less replacements and they might even change the repair policy.

It might, but I'd suggest it will always be more economical to ship the entire unit to the factory (or later a specialized drive train rebuild facility) and have the drive train specialists do the repair rather than train each SC technician to do it (and have variances in the quality/quantity of work done because the SC folks won't be doing it as a regular job). They would likely need more staff in the SCs as well to handle the extra work.

 

[anticitizen13.7]

By the way the replacement is typically for the inverter. The motor is usually fine. I believe a few have been replaced due to a clunk from the reduction gears. These gears are subject to higher torque than other cars cause.

From what I understand, the inverter is a module called the PEM, which is a bunch of electronics.

With no moving parts, I'm surprised that these units go bad. Maybe they need more burn-in to weed out bad units, or maybe there's a component quality issue. I hope this is resolved while production volume is still relatively low.

 

[Knobby]

I guess I'm surprised that this is still happening. After what seems like repeated multiple failures they should have been able to correct ongoing production by now. I would expect it to stop happening. Also so far they're all still warranty repairs so no one has paid, yet. I see numbers like $15K being tossed around, but I wonder where that came from. That might make sense for a new one, it just purchase it as a part, but I think the failed ones are sent back for refurbishing, therefore the actual charge to customer should be a lot less. At least I hope it is.

 

[JRP3]

It might, but I'd suggest it will always be more economical to ship the entire unit to the factory (or later a specialized drive train rebuild facility) and have the drive train specialists do the repair rather than train each SC technician to do it (and have variances in the quality/quantity of work done because the SC folks won't be doing it as a regular job). They would likely need more staff in the SCs as well to handle the extra work.

Not if the components are designed properly. Worst case, it should be easy to unbolt a defective motor, inverter, or gearbox and replace it at the service center. Ideally, components in the inverter, (circuit boards, IGBT's), should also be easily replaced. Same with bad gears and/or bearings in the gearbox. The motor itself simply should not have failures under 200K+ miles.

 

[Phil Seastrand]

From what I understand, the inverter is a module called the PEM, which is a bunch of electronics.

With no moving parts, I'm surprised that these units go bad. Maybe they need more burn-in to weed out bad units, or maybe there's a component quality issue. I hope this is resolved while production volume is still relatively low.

I wonder if this is anyway related to life expectancy of inverters in general. When we installed Solar at our house, the inverter was only expected to live ~10 years. I don't know what makes them wear out so quickly, but maybe it's something inherent to the technology.

 

[Doug_G]

It might, but I'd suggest it will always be more economical to ship the entire unit to the factory (or later a specialized drive train rebuild facility) and have the drive train specialists do the repair rather than train each SC technician to do it (and have variances in the quality/quantity of work done because the SC folks won't be doing it as a regular job). They would likely need more staff in the SCs as well to handle the extra work.

I don't think that's it. My theory: Tesla doesn't want to give the service centers anything more than they have to in the way of specialized tools and training. Eventually they're going to be forced to share this information with third party shops, and they want to keep their tech proprietary as much as possible.

 

[evme]

I have been wondering, from what I have seen/heard either a person swaps out their drivetrain 3-4 times or no times. So here is the question, when Tesla replaces them, are they giving people a new one or a refurbished/rebuilt/remanufactured one? Has anyone asked?

 

[cwerdna]

I agree with you, we have not heard other talk about the drive units. Tire issues and self opening doors etc.. but not drive train.

Have you missed threads/posts like these? Here are a bunch (nowhere near complete) involving drive unit replacement.

Drive Unit Replacement Poll (ignoring the bogus 5+ unit vote)
Tesla wants to replace my drive unit - 900 miles on car
Model S Technical / Mechanical Issues - Page 226
Model S Technical / Mechanical Issues - Page 234
Model S Technical / Mechanical Issues - Page 238
Model S Technical / Mechanical Issues - Page 240
Model S Technical / Mechanical Issues - Page 241
Model S Technical / Mechanical Issues - Page 241
Model S Technical / Mechanical Issues - Page 242
Sounds like I am driving a souped-up Honda Civic
Sound at high power
Hum Going Over 70 MPH
Drive unit/inverter replacement which battery??

As I've pointed out at Drive Unit Replacement Poll - Page 6, numerous Rav4 EV owners (motor, battery pack and numerous other components supplied by Tesla) have also had their drive units replaced for noise. Very few have been for failure though...

I guess I'm surprised that this is still happening. After what seems like repeated multiple failures they should have been able to correct ongoing production by now. I would expect it to stop happening.

Yep. I guess not. Edmunds' 2nd drive unit replacement was at Is the Third Drive Unit the Charm? - 2013 Tesla Model S Long-Term Road Test on ~Feb 20, 2014 at ~18.8K miles and that was for total failure. This 3rd replacement happened ~July 8, 2014 at 30.1K miles.

I really have to wonder why in the hell an electric motor needs to be replaced 3 times. As much as I am a fan of Tesla, this sort of failure rate is terrible.

Yes, it's only one car. But it makes me wonder if there's some issue with the motor manufacturing. Did the Roadster have this issue? Tesla cannot have this kind of failure rate going forward. The buyers of Audis and BMWs might expect a luxury car to have high maintenance and frequent repairs. The Honda/Toyota crowd will absolutely not tolerate this.

Yep. Those who have bought models of Toyotas and Hondas (and their luxury brands) w/known-good reliability records (most of their models) will absolutely say this type of thing isn't normal nor acceptable.

 

[cwerdna]

as far as I know, the most common drive unit problem seems to be a noisy inverter. this problem should be a lot cheaper than a whole drive unit replacement. I would think $1-2K max?

I think you're dreaming. You can't even get a folding mirrors upgrade for that.

Agreed on the dreaming part. I've seen figures on Priuschat of $4700 or $4800 for Gen 2 Prius blown inverters, usually caused by somebody doing a reversed polarity jumpstart (!) that took out more than just a fusible link. I'm unclear if that's the price of the part or parts + labor.

And, err... the Prius' inverter was WAY lower power input and output capability than any Model S.

These below are some teardowns of the Gen 2 Prius' inverter:
Prius inverter
Special Issue: Inside the Toyota Prius: Part 5 - Inverter/converter is Prius' power broker | EE Times
http://info.ornl.gov/sites/publications/files/Pub26762.pdf - actually covers Gen 3 Prius + some other Toyota/Lexus hybrids

 

[brianman]

I have been wondering, from what I have seen/heard either a person swaps out their drivetrain 3-4 times or no times. So here is the question, when Tesla replaces them, are they giving people a new one or a refurbished/rebuilt/remanufactured one? Has anyone asked?

Refurbished. For my first replacement, I asked to wait a month or more for a new one. After checking up the chain, the answer I got back was "that's not an option".

 

[Owner]

I somehow may have missed this issue. Seems like more about noise than about failure. There are so many threads here, I'm not surprised I missed this then. my bad.

Have you missed threads/posts like these? Here are a bunch (nowhere near complete) involving drive unit replacement.

Drive Unit Replacement Poll (ignoring the bogus 5+ unit vote)
Tesla wants to replace my drive unit - 900 miles on car
Model S Technical / Mechanical Issues - Page 226
Model S Technical / Mechanical Issues - Page 234
Model S Technical / Mechanical Issues - Page 238
Model S Technical / Mechanical Issues - Page 240
Model S Technical / Mechanical Issues - Page 241
Model S Technical / Mechanical Issues - Page 241
Model S Technical / Mechanical Issues - Page 242
Sounds like I am driving a souped-up Honda Civic
Sound at high power
Hum Going Over 70 MPH
Drive unit/inverter replacement which battery??

As I've pointed out at Drive Unit Replacement Poll - Page 6, numerous Rav4 EV owners (motor, battery pack and numerous other components supplied by Tesla) have also had their drive units replaced for noise. Very few have been for failure though...