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Electrify America Fast Chargers - Huh?
- Thread starter minderbinder
- Start date
Not a relevant comparison since Tesla charges per-kWh there....Comparison of California Rates:
EA no pass: $0.25/0.69/0.99 per minute
Tesla Supercharger: $0.13/0.26 per minute
It seems to me that Tesla’s per-minute rates are quite a bit cheaper than their own per-kWh rates. Is this just my perception or do others agree? Does anyone here have experience charging under both rate systems and can compare them?
Eno Deb
Active Member
They most definitely are. This is obvious in the plots I posted earlier. Additionally, in many parts of CA the per-kWh rate is actually higher than the $0.28 that Tesla quote on their web site (e.g. here in the Bay Area most chargers are $0.32 or even higher).
Remember that Tesla has to recover it's capital and labor costs thru the kWh charge. That makes the ¢/kWh higher than market price.
I just looked up EA charging rates in Calif thinking that the 2billion subsidy of our dieselgate funds would have produced some price benefits for us. What a rip off! They are almost double Tesla’s and one other ergo. What a rotten shame for our Calif Politicians and beaurocrats to have gotten their hands on this money. They should have just asked Tesla to spend the money. I seriously wonder whose pockets got lined.
Dieselgate money can't be used to fund proprietary networks, so your wish was always a nonstarter.
Are you conflating Electrify America, funded by dieselgate settlement, and EVgo, a company started by NRG and used to settle fraud charges related to market manipulation during the California utility deregulation transition?
EA is now cheaper than EVgo in Northern California.
EA below 75kW
Pass Plan: $1/session + $0.25/min
Pass+ Plan: $4/mo + $0.18/min
EVgo SF Bay Area
Pay as you Go: $0.30/min
Membership: $7.99/mo + $0.26/min (30 minutes included)
Charging 30 minutes per session 4 times per month on a car that takes less than 75kW:
EA Pass Plan: $8.50 * 4 = $34.00
EA Pass+ Plan: $4.00 + $5.40 * 4 = $25.60
EVgo PAYG: $9.00 * 4 = $36.00
EVgo Membership: $7.99 + $7.80 * 3 = $31.39
Personally, I will be trying the Novato EA site when I go camping this summer instead of using the EVgo site at the Petaluma Outlets.
With the frequency that I use any kind of DC fast charging, Supercharger or otherwise, the pricing doesn't make any meaningful difference to my annual driving budget. On average, 95% of my mileage is charged at home on off-peak rates.
Just FYI, the EVgo rate in LA/OC/Inland Empire is cheaper than the Bay Area, but San Diego is more expensive than the Bay Area. It doesn't matter where you live, it matters where the charger is located.
EA is now cheaper than EVgo in Northern California.
EA below 75kW
Pass Plan: $1/session + $0.25/min
Pass+ Plan: $4/mo + $0.18/min
EVgo SF Bay Area
Pay as you Go: $0.30/min
Membership: $7.99/mo + $0.26/min (30 minutes included)
Charging 30 minutes per session 4 times per month on a car that takes less than 75kW:
EA Pass Plan: $8.50 * 4 = $34.00
EA Pass+ Plan: $4.00 + $5.40 * 4 = $25.60
EVgo PAYG: $9.00 * 4 = $36.00
EVgo Membership: $7.99 + $7.80 * 3 = $31.39
Personally, I will be trying the Novato EA site when I go camping this summer instead of using the EVgo site at the Petaluma Outlets.
With the frequency that I use any kind of DC fast charging, Supercharger or otherwise, the pricing doesn't make any meaningful difference to my annual driving budget. On average, 95% of my mileage is charged at home on off-peak rates.
Just FYI, the EVgo rate in LA/OC/Inland Empire is cheaper than the Bay Area, but San Diego is more expensive than the Bay Area. It doesn't matter where you live, it matters where the charger is located.
Connecticut has twelve Supercharger sites with three more under construction, for a total of 112 stalls.
Yes, the per-minute pricing is significantly less expensive, especially if you run in the bottom half of the battery and don't skip Superchargers. I just did a 1,200 mile trip earlier this week and the difference between per-minute and per-kWh pricing is obvious.
Assuming the Tesla CHAdeMO adapter gives you an average 45 kW rate at EA, that would get you 90 kWh for an EA Pass+ price of $25.60.
The same 90 kWh at Tesla’s California rate of $.28 per kWh works out to $25.20.
FlatSix911
Porsche 918 Hybrid
I Agree that both EA and EVgo are overpriced and a poor choice when compared to the Tesla Supercharger network.
Actually, I disagree that they are both overpriced compared to Supercharging. They are probably a poor choice for a Tesla owner, but that's because you spend less time at a Supercharger than you would with a CHAdeMO adapter at other public DCFC stations. However, the main reason that people get the CHAdeMO adapter is because they need to charge at places that don't have Superchargers, but do have industry standard fast chargers.
The table below is assuming that someone without home charging is going to use public fast charging to recharge ALL their miles. 35kWh about twice a week (8x per month) will get them all the energy they need. Depending on which car we're talking about and how much vampire drain there is you might get more or less than 1,000 miles per month from this much charging. Supercharging in California is not all the same price. I clicked through a bunch of stations on my Model 3's screen and all the ones I looked at were between $0.28 and $0.32/kWh inclusive. The EVgo and Electrify America prices are the same as my earlier post. The speed is assuming the car is limited to 125A charging (avg 45kW) and has a ~400VDC battery pack. Obviously we are starting to get cars on the market that are faster than this, but that's not the point of this post. When a Tesla CCS adapter is released, it would warrant another comparison based on how fast an EA 150kW charger actually charges various Tesla cars. In fact, charging a Bolt EV at Electrify America would be even cheaper than shown below because it will not trigger the higher priced tier above 75kW and it will use fewer minutes to take on the 35kWh in the comparison.
So, you can see that Electrify America's membership plan is actually more than 9% cheaper than the lower priced paid Supercharging in California. EVgo is about 9% more expensive than the more expensive paid Supercharging. The times given for Supercharging are for 150kW (low) and 72kW (high) in minutes. The 14 minute time is extremely optimistic given the example is urban and you're unlikely to get the full speed due to stall pairing and other factors.
FlatSix911
Porsche 918 Hybrid
Actually, I disagree that they are both overpriced compared to Supercharging. They are probably a poor choice for a Tesla owner, but that's because you spend less time at a Supercharger than you would with a CHAdeMO adapter at other public DCFC stations...
For a Model S, I think it would be a better comparison to use the 0.50 per minute charging fee for the tier at 125kW for EA as referenced below by Eno Deb. The new EA charging fee is based on the maximum charging power capability of the vehicle without regard to the actual tapered value.
"Electrify America’s new tiered plans query the vehicle for its maximum charging power rate when the car is first connected and use that to choose the per-minute pricing tier that will be used during the full duration of charging. So, a Jaguar I-PACE that can charge faster than 75 kW but has a peak rate under 125 kW will now pay $.69 per minute or with a Pass+ subscription, it will be $.50 per minute. An Audi e-tron, that can charge faster than 126 kW, will now pay $.99 per minute without a subscription or $.70 per minute with a Pass+ plan in California."
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Eno Deb
Active Member
I agree that the EA rates are pretty good if you use the Chademo adapter due to its slowness (or just a non-Tesla EV that charges at <75kW). However, if we get a CCS adapter comparable to the European one, the "power level" pricing scheme will be extremely bad for us. As seen in the video below, a Model X with the adapter peaks at around 130kW early on (which would put the car in the highest EA pricing tier) and then quickly drops to lower levels. This is the worst case scenario for the EA scheme.
We will have to see how EA actually bills the tiers. This doesn't matter for Tesla owners until Tesla delivers a high power adapter for North American vehicles. I stand by my assumption that the billing will be according to the highest power delivered in the session, not the absolute power ceiling of the vehicle, EA's terrible wording notwithstanding. So, if you arrive and it's charging fast enough for the top tier, you wait a few minutes after it has dropped into the next tier and end that session. Then start a new session that will start in the next lower tier, and so on until you have enough energy to continue your trip.
I also stand by my earlier statement that the EA network is not for Tesla drivers, it's for everyone else. Normally I wouldn't care about the EA network, but I have one Tesla vehicle and one non-Tesla vehicle, so I follow the progress and pricing of all the American charging networks.
Eno Deb
Active Member
We shouldn't have to stand next to the car and micromanage the charging session to achieve a reasonable price. And if the pricing scheme is really that easy to cheat, it just shows how braindead it is IMO.
Right now you're obviously right since there is no CCS adapter for North America. But assuming that changes, the EA network (which is growing faster than the supercharger network at the moment) will soon have the potential of being a great alternative for overcrowded or not conveniently placed superchargers. For that reason I'd like to see a more reasonable pricing scheme for fast-charging cars.
I agree. EA should automatically charge the tier price for any minute that delivered power within that tier. For example, if you charge for 9.25 minutes at 125kW or greater, then 20.7 minutes at 75kW or greater, they should bill $1.00 + 10 x $0.99 + 20 x $0.69 for non-members. We should not have to go back after 11 or 12 minutes to stop the charger to save $5 or $6
FlatSix911
Porsche 918 Hybrid
Note that there is a report that the Model 3 LR will be able to charge at up to 200 kW on CCS. I would guess closer to around 180 kW on some of the EA “350 kW” machines which can likely output 500A at voltages below 500V — if there is ever a Type 1 CCS for Model 3 cars in the US.
Tesla Model 3 to offer 200kW charging for UK buyers | Autocar
At EA’s Pass+ CA rate of $.70 per minute that would as low as $.23 per kWh.
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