There is a 3-SC setup at East Towne Mall in Madison WI (interestingly, there are eight more SC stalls less than a half-mile away at a HyVee) and several years back I saw a two-stall SC on the Connecticut Turnpike. But the trend is definitely towards bigger installs.
-
Want to remove ads? Register an account and login to see fewer ads, and become a Supporting Member to remove almost all ads.
Electrify America Fast Chargers - Huh?
- Thread starter minderbinder
- Start date
There is a 3-SC setup at East Towne Mall in Madison WI (interestingly, there are eight more SC stalls less than a half-mile away at a HyVee) and several years back I saw a two-stall SC on the Connecticut Turnpike. But the trend is definitely towards bigger installs.
Forgot to mention that Electrify America is installing a 4-bay charger at a Walmart within a mile of the Madison Superchargers, and our local utility Madison Gas and Electric has about 35 Level 2 J1772's and four Chargepoint L3's in the neighborhood. There are also three or four EVGo's, and the two Nissan dealers have Chademos available for anyone to use. We are pretty charger-rich in Madison.
dennis
Model S Plaid
It is important to not just count sites but also look at how they are deployed. What you can see now from the PlugShare map is that live EA locations are mostly concentrated in the areas where there are fewer EV's purchased (South and Midwest) and sparse where there are a lot of EV's purchased (California, western states and Northeast. I believe this is a function of where they main partner Walmart has the densest coverage and the length of time it takes to get permits and construction crews in the more populous regions.
According to their latest press releases, EA only plans to have two coast to coast routes enabled by the end of their second investment period in December 2021. Tesla has 5 such routes: Interstates 90, 80, 70, 40 and 10. Also EA is yet to even post enough Coming Soon sites to enable the most traveled route between the Bay Area and LA which is I-5. This is the first route Tesla opened and has 18, 20 and 40 stall locations now at Harris Ranch, Tejon Ranch and Kettleman City.
EA's rollout schedule is also being delayed. Here is their latest statement:
In a press release three weeks ago "end of 2019" was "July 2019". And a few months ago "under development" was "under construction".
The only advantage I can see for a Tesla owner to have a CCS adapter is that on a busy travel weekend the EA locations near Superchargers are likely to be uncrowded. Tesla's coverage will continue to be far superior to EA for quite some time.
Unsurprising, really. In addition to likely having a significantly larger budget than Tesla's Supercharger build out over those respective periods, EA has 2 MASSIVE advantages.
- They were able to get Walmart to sign on early as their partner (and then Target a bit later). A huge portion of the early project development process is dedicated to site scouting, selection, property acquisition/lease negotiation, etc. Almost all of this was automatically completed for about 3/4 of EA's total network essentially overnight. Plus, they could just look at Tesla's conveniently published maps and have a free blueprint (as determined by the industry leader) on exactly which stores they should choose to be building at. The second the Walmart announcement was made, it was obvious that they would be able to move waaaay faster than Tesla did.
- EA also contracted with Black & Veatch (B&V) and SAI Group, the same firms that Tesla primarily contracted with, for their design, engineering, permitting, project management, and construction support. So, EA got to immediately benefit from the 5+ years of experience and all the lessons learned each of those firms developed through their partnerships with Tesla in building the country's premier fast charging network. I'm sure they are much more efficient now than when Tesla originally started with them, with dozens of qualified employees who have all had lots of personal experience with multiple sites on an essentially identical project. As a result, for EA, staffing up that side of it wasn't much of a challenge at all and should have been done with hardly any delay. It was faster, easier, and they got higher quality people than Tesla originally had (because they already had so much directly applicable experience). The only caveat being that EA should have had to pay more to buy that experience.
Eno Deb
Active Member
They are lagging on the west coast, but the northeast looks well covered to me. Here's a map of their currently operational sites according to Plugshare:
dennis
Model S Plaid
I guess you and I have different definitions of "well covered". Here's the coverage comparison between live EA sites and Tesla Supercharger locations:
CT - 2 vs. 9
NH - 0 vs. 4
NJ - 0 vs. 14
NY - 2 vs. 31
MA - 3 vs. 13
ME - 0 vs. 4
PA - 4 vs. 18
RI - 1 vs. 1
VT - 0 vs. 3
Total 12 vs. 97. If you include the EA Coming Soon sites it is 31 vs. 97.
Last edited:
Eno Deb
Active Member
I said nothing about Tesla chargers. I was just responding to your claim that the EA locations were concentrated in the south and midwest and sparser in the northeast, which does not appear to be the case according to the Plugshare map.
Obviously the EA network isn't as well developed as the much older Tesla network at this point, but it should be absolutely sufficient e.g. to make roadtrips along the east cost and other routes.
It’s more useful to just look at a map. Here is the latest Electrify America Cycle 1 map showing approximate charging locations planned to be operational by the end of this year.
No, there’s no delay — that was a screwup in the May 6 press release. I’ve been told it’s going to be corrected online soon (meaning probably in the next day or two).
They are still saying the same thing they have been saying for at least the last year or so which is that they will have all ~484 of the locations leased and “under development” by June 30 but won’t have them all fully constructed, energized by the utilities, and open for business until the end of this year.
I was at the media workshop at their HQ in Virginia a couple of weeks ago and wrote this:
Electrify America shows new mobile app, reveals new pricing plans
Yep. They recently rolled out a major software update to their sites which may fix some of the problems people have been having.
They still have some inconsistent site design issues with the local subcontractors they are using but those are typically issues that can be easily fixed such as concrete parking stops that keep cars from getting close enough.
They are installing longer cables at some sites and are also changing the rotation of the cables so they don’t have to be twisted as much when plugging into a car inlet. The recently updated site in Livermore in California, for example, is now much easier to use.
I’d say Tesla is averaging more like 9 charging spaces now where Electrify America is going to average about 5 in Cycle 1 for their highway sites. Obviously, some of Tesla’s sites are now 20 or even 40 charging spaces while Electrify America tops out now at 10 but they have hinted they might have a small number of sites with slightly more.
At the end of this year I’m guessing Tesla might have around 700-800 sites in the US (about 640 now). Electrify America will have close to 500 (with maybe a few Cycle 2 sites online).
But, Tesla’s sites are more evenly dispersed, have about twice the number of charging spaces on average, and overall will likely have 7,000-8,000 charging spaces in the US vs 2,000+ for Electrify America.
It’s too soon to compare electricity dispensing and utilization rates because right now there are still large gaps in EA’s network which inhibits long-distance road trips to many destinations. Also, there are fewer CCS cars on the road to use them. Drivers inclined toward road trips today are far more likely to have bought a Tesla. For local charging, many Tesla customers still have “free” Supercharging which encourages use.
FlatSix911
Porsche 918 Hybrid
You forgot to factor in the Electrify America Pass membership that will include the standard per-minute cost of charging, plus a $1 session fee. Pass+ will have a $4 monthly subscription fee.
rxlawdude
Active Member
Until these unicorns actually exist, any non-Tesla traveling across the country will be stopping for 8 hour charges every 150 miles. Not viable. I trust VW as much as I trust their EPA submissions.
FlatSix911
Porsche 918 Hybrid
The story continues... Dieselgate disaster — states squandering their settlement funds - Electrek
The stunning study comes from the United States Public Interest Research Group (US PIRG), which gives only 15 states a C grade or better when it comes to policies that can increase access to clean transportation, including electric vehicle charging and electric bus fleets. The rest of the states earned D or F grades. US PIRG used eight grading categories to come up with its final grade for each state. The categories are as follows:
The stunning study comes from the United States Public Interest Research Group (US PIRG), which gives only 15 states a C grade or better when it comes to policies that can increase access to clean transportation, including electric vehicle charging and electric bus fleets. The rest of the states earned D or F grades. US PIRG used eight grading categories to come up with its final grade for each state. The categories are as follows:
- Are electric vehicles prioritized in funding?
- Are electric vehicles prioritized in stated plan goals?
- Are electric buses prioritized?
- Are diesel vehicles eligible for more than 15 percent of total award?
- Are diesel vehicles ineligible for funding?
- Are other “alternative fuel” vehicles, like compressed natural gas or propane, eligible for 15 percent of total award?
- Is charging infrastructure eligible?
- Is the state using 15 percent of its award on charging infrastructure projects?
Hmmm... For whatever reason, the image isn't showing up for me. In case anyone else is also having this problem, I'm attaching a different copy. Apologies for the duplication to anyone who the original shows up for.
Attachments
Eno Deb
Active Member
I wonder why Alaska gets two different grades...and Arkansas doesn't get one at all.The story continues... Dieselgate disaster — states squandering their settlement funds - Electrek
The stunning study comes from the United States Public Interest Research Group (US PIRG), which gives only 15 states a C grade or better when it comes to policies that can increase access to clean transportation, including electric vehicle charging and electric bus fleets. The rest of the states earned D or F grades. US PIRG used eight grading categories to come up with its final grade for each state. The categories are as follows:
And here are the resulting grades:
- Are electric vehicles prioritized in funding?
- Are electric vehicles prioritized in stated plan goals?
- Are electric buses prioritized?
- Are diesel vehicles eligible for more than 15 percent of total award?
- Are diesel vehicles ineligible for funding?
- Are other “alternative fuel” vehicles, like compressed natural gas or propane, eligible for 15 percent of total award?
- Is charging infrastructure eligible?
- Is the state using 15 percent of its award on charging infrastructure projects?
FlatSix911
Porsche 918 Hybrid
As the article states, the funding is part of the larger Dieselgate settlement:
Nearly $3 billion in funding from Volkswagen’s Dieselgate settlement designed to go toward cleaner transportation in the US is being underutilized in EV infrastructure and adoption, according to a recent study which grades all states based on their spending plans. In fact, at least 14 states could see all of their allotted funds go toward diesel vehicle projects.
Eno Deb
Active Member
It still has nothing to do with Electrify America since it's a separate budget.
The ~$3 billion environmental trust fund that supplies the money for the state grant plans and the $2 billion Electrify America funding are part of the same overall primary legal settlement but are operated under independent rules and are designed to remedy separate problems.
Electrify America is a mandated investment by Volkswagen Group to promote and provide infrastructure for zero emission vehicles. The facilities are owned by VW and can potentially make a profit. The money must be spent on a fixed schedule but only certain types of spending qualify. The plans must be submitted in advance for every 2.5 year cycle and reviewed and approved by the EPA and California’s clean air board. This is all governed by Appendix C of the settlement.
The environmental trust is a bag of cash that is available in predetermined portions to each state to fund individual local grants. The grants must fund only certain specified kinds of projects. Up to 15% of the money can be used for general purpose electric vehicle charging. The stated purpose of the trust fund is to reduce nitrogen oxide emissions to counteract the excess NOX emissions caused by VW’s dieselgate cheating. Nominally, this trust fund is not targeted at reducing particulate or carbon dioxide emissions although US PIRG conflates these goals. This is all governed by Appendix D of the settlement.
Eno Deb
Active Member
Isn't the burden on proof on the person who first made a claim?
Anyway, you can read the details about the Dieselgate settlement here:
Volkswagen Clean Air Act Civil Settlement | US EPA
In short, Electrify America is funded out of the $2 billion ZEV Investment fund. The money that some states apparently have trouble managing comes out of the separate $2.7 billion Mitigation fund.
Similar threads
