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That is false.

Neither Tesla nor Electrify America does those things.

The processs is handle by contractors in the area.

Those same contractors do work for multiple companies (Tesla, Electrify America, EVgo, Greenlots, etc).


Again, this is false.

The timing depends on when the utility companies can perform the necessary upgrades on their end.

For example, if the utility company can't hookup a new transformer until end of July, then that is that.

I think you're missing the forest for the trees. The point is that Tesla has a well established network of contractors and other contracts that they have grown over the 8 years they've been building out the Supercharger network, and they have streamlined the buildout process such that yes, if the utility can't hookup a new transformer in July, they know that ahead of time and will divert resources elsewhere and schedule that particular site for July construction to coincide with the transformer install.

What you are saying is that it's enough for EA to pop onto the scene and have an optimized process from day one. But having tracked the progress of Supercharger installs over the past few years, I've seen a significant improvement in the project durations. I'm just now starting to monitor EA installs (it's a bit more difficult because there is not yet an accepted community forum to track--this is what I am trying to create). But from what I have seen, they appear to be where Tesla was about 2-3 years ago. Granted, that does mean that they did benefit from a lot of the learning that Tesla did--it didn't take them 5 years to get to that point. And they will certainly improve going forward.
 
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Yeah, EA definitely has a big problem with permit speeds and hookup/commissioning. Right now on Plugshare there seem to be at least a few dozen if not more stations that are installed, some even with transformers, and just awaiting utility hookup or commissioning--some for months, some the better part of a year.
 
I think you're missing the forest for the trees. The point is that Tesla has a well established network of contractors and other contracts that they have grown over the 8 years they've been building out the Supercharger network, and they have streamlined the buildout process such that yes, if the utility can't hookup a new transformer in July, they know that ahead of time and will divert resources elsewhere and schedule that particular site for July construction to coincide with the transformer install.

What you are saying is that it's enough for EA to pop onto the scene and have an optimized process from day one. But having tracked the progress of Supercharger installs over the past few years, I've seen a significant improvement in the project durations. I'm just now starting to monitor EA installs (it's a bit more difficult because there is not yet an accepted community forum to track--this is what I am trying to create). But from what I have seen, they appear to be where Tesla was about 2-3 years ago. Granted, that does mean that they did benefit from a lot of the learning that Tesla did--it didn't take them 5 years to get to that point. And they will certainly improve going forward.
So let's get this out of the way.

How long does it take on average for Tesla to get a permit for a station?

How long does it take on average for Tesla to get a utility hookup for a station?
 
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And in fact, here is the first EA site I noticed that does not have a CHAdeMO connector:


Discussion thread: Fastcharger - Commerce City - Kroger King Soopers 114 (Commerce City, CO)

As you can see, I am creating a companion to supercharge.info & the discussion threads for non-Tesla fastchargers (not just ElectrifyAmerica). It's still early days so not much activity yet, but if you want to help jump start the tracking of non-Tesla DC fastchargers, join me at fastcharger.info

(I will post later on with my experience on a road trip using EA sites in my wife's ID.4 and how it compares to the same trip on the Supercharger network)
Note that you can probably populate the Canada charging sites on fastcharger.info with the data from Alternative Fuels Data Center as Canada and US contribute to that database

US link to the database

Canada link to the same database
 
I do wonder if Electrify America can get away with fewer than 4 chargers per station in less traffic area (i.e. in Wyoming)
Possibly, but a lot of the cost for each site is the permit, transformer and installation so it won't result in proportional savings because of the fixed installation related costs. I guess they could do 2 stalls and "rough-in" the conduit for cabinet and pedestals to save some installation costs for an expansion, but having additional charging cabinets for redundancy in case of a cabinet failure might be useful enough to cap the minimum at 4 stalls.
 
Possibly, but a lot of the cost for each site is the permit, transformer and installation so it won't result in proportional savings because of the fixed installation related costs. I guess they could do 2 stalls and "rough-in" the conduit for cabinet and pedestals to save some installation costs for an expansion, but having additional charging cabinets for redundancy in case of a cabinet failure might be useful enough to cap the minimum at 4 stalls.
If anything, they seem to be going the other way. It seems like a lot of their stations I've seen go in lately have space on the pad for additional cabinets and prepared additional conduit to make additional charger addition easier.
 
So let's get this out of the way.

How long does it take on average for Tesla to get a permit for a station?

How long does it take on average for Tesla to get a utility hookup for a station?
The answer to the first question is possibly unknowable unless one is a Tesla insider or has a REAL lot of time on their hands, or if Tesla has shared that statistic (which I don't recall seeing). Some jurisdictions have good online building permit repositories, but most do not, so getting this information would require actually calling up town offices and requesting that information. You shared the EA stat because they themselves shared the information in the context of complaining about the average time in CA versus other states.

Either way, is the question the average time for Tesla to get a permit for a station going back to 2013? Or perhaps is it more meaningful to look at where things stand currently (and possibly what the trend is)?

Determining the utility hookup timespan is a bit easier if you have a dedicated army of sleuths out there investigating construction progress (creating this is one of my goals for fastcharger.info). So I think we have pretty good data on the Tesla side. On the EA side, I am mainly relying on Plugshare (for now), which admittedly is far from ideal.

But I did take a look at the most recent Supercharger openings to fill in some kind of picture, and I'll compare that to at least the subset of EA sites that I had been monitoring earlier this year, as well as some that have recently opened.

SuperchargerPermit AppliedPermit IssuedConstructionTransformerPowerCommissioning
Laurel, MD4/23/218/2/2111/18/2112/13/2112/14/21
Manassas, VA6/1/217/21/2110/24/2112/8/2112/13/21
Franklin, MA7/12/218/23/2111/13/2112/11/2112/13/21
Austin - Southpark Meadows, TX6/3/217/26/219/17/2112/10/21
San Ramon, CA8/3/206/19/2110/31/2112/10/21
Elizabethtown, KY8/16/2112/6/2112/9/2112/10/21
Rockingham, NC9/29/2111/21/2111/22/2112/10/21

Now those dates are not necessarily perfect. The construction, transformer, power and commissioning dates are when a particular forum poster first noticed construction started, the transformer was delivered, the meter was installed, and the site went live, respectively. Of the sites where we have data, the permit process appears to have taken 50 and 53 days. For Laurel, MD and San Ramon, CA we can also put an upper bound of 101 days and 320 days, respectively, but that combines the permit process with the start of construction, so there may be other factors at play as well. Additionally, the variability here is probably too great to draw any strong conclusions anyway. Some sites in areas that have been already populated with chargers likely have a relatively easier time than those for which they are a brand new entity. The stretch across I-90 you pointed out for EA would seem challenging because of this.

On the Construction->Commissioning side, the range is from 50 days (Manassas, VA) to 174 days (San Ramon, CA) with an average of 106 days, although it should be noted that I skipped a few sites that literally just popped up without anyone even detecting any activity until it showed up on the map!

Looking at the EA side of things, I clearly don't have much great data (consider these dates--other than the final live date--very approximate), but here is what I have for a collection of sites that I have been monitoring, and some recent EA openings:

FastchargerPermit AppliedPermit IssuedConstruction StartConstruction EndTransformerPowerCommissioning
Syrcause, NY - Erie Canal Center2/10/212/28/217/14/21
Syracause, NY - Mirabito North6/3/2110/22/2111/22/21
Binghamton, NY4/16/215/30/218/14/219/22/21
Stafford, VA2/27/193/9/195/3/19
Aptos, CA7/7/218/14/21After 10/28/2111/30/21
Fullerton, CA7/28/2112/6/21
Henderson, NV5/2/2111/16/21
Phoenix, AZ6/13/219/1/2111/25/21

The duration from start of construction to commissioning ranges from 65 days (Stafford, VA) to 172 days (Syracuse North), with most clustered around the upper number, for an average of 142 days.

Would I read a lot into this? Probably not. The sample size is very small. But having watched the pace of Supercharger permits, installs, transformer deliveries, and commissionings acclerate over the past year or two, not to mention the acceleration is the raw number of sites being installed (in the past month there have been 32 Superchargers open in the US to 15 Electrify America sites), I feel I need to reiterate my point that Tesla has the more streamlined process for now. I'm not trying to knock EA here: it's natural that they are still ramping up their capability. I have no doubt they will eventually catch up to Tesla as Tesla starts to saturate and reach a point of diminishing improvements. But we're not there yet.
 
Note that you can probably populate the Canada charging sites on fastcharger.info with the data from Alternative Fuels Data Center as Canada and US contribute to that database

US link to the database

Canada link to the same database

Yes, this is my primary source. I am focusing on US data now and may pull in the Canadian data eventually.

I've noticed the AFDC data is quite "dirty" so it's taking a lot of time to audit and clean it up. It's not really their fault per se because they are just getting their data from the charging network providers, and they are inconsistent with how they input their data.

For example, ChargePoint designates each individual charging station as a "site", meaning if they put 4 charging stations next to each other in a parking lot, they will have 4 separate AFDC entries, whereas other providers will have one entry with multiple connectors.

EVgo will double count their stalls by tagging a station with 2 connectors (CCS and CHAdeMO for example) as 2 stalls. To be fair, some of their stations do allow simultaneous charging, but I don't count that as two unless they've positioned the charging stations to actually allow two parking spots to access the single station, something they rarely do.

And many of the providers don't simply update their entry if something changes, rather they delete the old one and just add a new one. This means I have to detect that and determine whether this is actually a new station, or just a renaming of the old one.

Add to that many of the early stations at Nissan dealers and the like that have not worked for years or have been completely removed. It's taking awhile to clean up the data--as a result if you look at the total stall count on my site, you'll see that it's been going DOWN for several weeks as I clean up more data. I'm down to about 1400 more sites to audit--I'm up to entries that were added in the late 2018 to 2019 period, so I'm mostly hitting EA sites at the moment.
 
I do wonder if Electrify America can get away with fewer than 4 chargers per station in less traffic area (i.e. in Wyoming)
Maybe, but until the reliability of their stations improves, I think it's risky to have any less than 4. As I mentioned in my previous post, I'm auditing my fastcharger data and hitting mostly EA sites at the moment. Compared to other providers, EA sites are at least more reliable than others (I don't have to mark any as CLOSED TEMPORARILY), but at the same time I see many (I won't say most, but it's probably close to 40%) where there is at least 1 stall that is out of order. It would be a really bad thing to show up at a remote station in Wyoming and have 2 out of 2 chargers down for some reason.
 
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The answer to the first question is possibly unknowable unless one is a Tesla insider or has a REAL lot of time on their hands, or if Tesla has shared that statistic (which I don't recall seeing). Some jurisdictions have good online building permit repositories, but most do not, so getting this information would require actually calling up town offices and requesting that information. You shared the EA stat because they themselves shared the information in the context of complaining about the average time in CA versus other states.

Either way, is the question the average time for Tesla to get a permit for a station going back to 2013? Or perhaps is it more meaningful to look at where things stand currently (and possibly what the trend is)?

Determining the utility hookup timespan is a bit easier if you have a dedicated army of sleuths out there investigating construction progress (creating this is one of my goals for fastcharger.info). So I think we have pretty good data on the Tesla side. On the EA side, I am mainly relying on Plugshare (for now), which admittedly is far from ideal.

But I did take a look at the most recent Supercharger openings to fill in some kind of picture, and I'll compare that to at least the subset of EA sites that I had been monitoring earlier this year, as well as some that have recently opened.

SuperchargerPermit AppliedPermit IssuedConstructionTransformerPowerCommissioning
Laurel, MD4/23/218/2/2111/18/2112/13/2112/14/21
Manassas, VA6/1/217/21/2110/24/2112/8/2112/13/21
Franklin, MA7/12/218/23/2111/13/2112/11/2112/13/21
Austin - Southpark Meadows, TX6/3/217/26/219/17/2112/10/21
San Ramon, CA8/3/206/19/2110/31/2112/10/21
Elizabethtown, KY8/16/2112/6/2112/9/2112/10/21
Rockingham, NC9/29/2111/21/2111/22/2112/10/21

Now those dates are not necessarily perfect. The construction, transformer, power and commissioning dates are when a particular forum poster first noticed construction started, the transformer was delivered, the meter was installed, and the site went live, respectively. Of the sites where we have data, the permit process appears to have taken 50 and 53 days. For Laurel, MD and San Ramon, CA we can also put an upper bound of 101 days and 320 days, respectively, but that combines the permit process with the start of construction, so there may be other factors at play as well. Additionally, the variability here is probably too great to draw any strong conclusions anyway. Some sites in areas that have been already populated with chargers likely have a relatively easier time than those for which they are a brand new entity. The stretch across I-90 you pointed out for EA would seem challenging because of this.

On the Construction->Commissioning side, the range is from 50 days (Manassas, VA) to 174 days (San Ramon, CA) with an average of 106 days, although it should be noted that I skipped a few sites that literally just popped up without anyone even detecting any activity until it showed up on the map!

Looking at the EA side of things, I clearly don't have much great data (consider these dates--other than the final live date--very approximate), but here is what I have for a collection of sites that I have been monitoring, and some recent EA openings:

FastchargerPermit AppliedPermit IssuedConstruction StartConstruction EndTransformerPowerCommissioning
Syrcause, NY - Erie Canal Center2/10/212/28/217/14/21
Syracause, NY - Mirabito North6/3/2110/22/2111/22/21
Binghamton, NY4/16/215/30/218/14/219/22/21
Stafford, VA2/27/193/9/195/3/19
Aptos, CA7/7/218/14/21After 10/28/2111/30/21
Fullerton, CA7/28/2112/6/21
Henderson, NV5/2/2111/16/21
Phoenix, AZ6/13/219/1/2111/25/21

The duration from start of construction to commissioning ranges from 65 days (Stafford, VA) to 172 days (Syracuse North), with most clustered around the upper number, for an average of 142 days.

Would I read a lot into this? Probably not. The sample size is very small. But having watched the pace of Supercharger permits, installs, transformer deliveries, and commissionings acclerate over the past year or two, not to mention the acceleration is the raw number of sites being installed (in the past month there have been 32 Superchargers open in the US to 15 Electrify America sites), I feel I need to reiterate my point that Tesla has the more streamlined process for now. I'm not trying to knock EA here: it's natural that they are still ramping up their capability. I have no doubt they will eventually catch up to Tesla as Tesla starts to saturate and reach a point of diminishing improvements. But we're not there yet.
Well, I'll just say that I have no idea how to reply to an argument that is made mostly or entirely of anecdotal evidence.
 
One thing I do wonder is how busy Electrify America stations are going to get when Tesla drivers are provided with the option of CCS.

Electrify America station only has one CHAdeMO plug and it is often broken.

Not only that, but CHAdeMO is limited to 50 kW.
Many EA sites can deliver 200A through the CHAdeMO connector. For a 400V EV, that is more like 80kW. However, that is not available to Tesla drivers because the Tesla CHAdeMO adapter is limited to 125A.
 
I had a Model Y pull up next to me at a charger while traveling this week and got excited when they pulled out an adapter. Turns out it wasn't a new CCS-equipped car and an adapter soured from South Korea first party or internet third-party passthrough, just somebody taking their first Tesla on its first road trip and mistaken on what the J1772 would let them do. They really need to get that CCS adapter out and stop shipping new cars without the chips for it...
 
I had a Model Y pull up next to me at a charger while traveling this week and got excited when they pulled out an adapter. Turns out it wasn't a new CCS-equipped car and an adapter soured from South Korea first party or internet third-party passthrough, just somebody taking their first Tesla on its first road trip and mistaken on what the J1772 would let them do. They really need to get that CCS adapter out and stop shipping new cars without the chips for it...
The strangest part about the CCS1 adapter is that Tesla does not recommend using with chargers >300A due to insufficient testing.

Electrify America, the largest public charging network in the US, exclusively uses 350A and 500A chargers.
 
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The strangest part about the CCS1 adapter is that Tesla does not recommend using with chargers >300A due to insufficient testing.

Electrify America, the largest public charging network in the US, exclusively uses 350A and 500A chargers.
That is a strange statement. Of all the DC chargers in USA, there's pretty much only these:
63A (24kW)
100A (50kW)
125A (50kW)
156A (62.5kW)
200A (100kW)
350A (150-300kW)
500A (350kW)

The two in the middle (62.5kW ChargePoint & 100kW Delta) are deployed in relatively small numbers at this point. However, they are being actively deployed in significant numbers.