Tesla paid for the Superchargers so I guess they can decide who uses them
When I bought my car I thought they were exclusive, and they were. Now they’re not. My MX had radar until one day it didn’t. Etc, etc.. Common denominator is Elon Musk.
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Electrify America general discussion
- Thread starter Mockingbird
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When I bought my car I thought they were exclusive, and they were. Now they’re not. My MX had radar until one day it didn’t. Etc, etc.. Common denominator is Elon Musk.
masotime
Member
They don't have to - but it's better for the EV industry in general. A monopoly is not great - a healthy, competitive ecosystem can only benefit the general public in the long term.
I get that American Tesla owners may feel like a big reason for buying a Tesla is the "exclusivity" of the supercharger network, but I think it's harmful for general EV adoption as a whole. To me Europe did it right by requiring the common CCS standard. Tesla is free to charge more for "outside" use of their chargers, but it shouldn't be restricted completely. To draw a parallel - I have the same sentiments with Apple's Lightning port and am glad they are being forced to move off it to the more ubiquitous USB-C standard.
A few reason:
- Increases Supercharger utilization. An underutilized Charger is bad for Tesla as it's not generating any revenue as it sits idly.
- Increased utilization means decreased ice'ing. I'd much rather wait for someone finishing up a charge versus someone who just left their vehicle blocking a charger.
- Superchargers are often located in shopping centers where there is an expectation of the shopping center that sales will increase due to the chargers. This is why they allowed for it despite losing parking spaces. So opening up availability means that it drives more revenue
- The biggest obstacle is convincing someone to buy an EV in the first place. Opening up Tesla chargers to all lowers the obstacles in people buying an EV. Obviously Tesla will be the EV of choice for many.
- It's the best kind of marketing when things just work. So this means people charging their non-Tesla will see Tesla as a high reliability provider. Its well known in the industry that Tesla has the most reliable chargers.
Not exactly. We bought our first Tesla from Martin Eberhard and Marc Tarpenning. Musk was just a rich guy in the back room with a lot of money.
Things change, some for the better, some, not so much.
RTPEV
Active Member
Exclusive to whom?
Certainly you did not expect Superchargers to remain open only to you and everyone who bought a Tesla prior to you (i.e. cut off access to the Superchargers to everyone that bought a car after you). If you were okay with the fact that people that bought a Tesla after you were allowed to use your Superchargers, does it really make a difference whether the car they pull up to the Supercharger in is made by Tesla or some other company?
Granted, I do think Tesla, or any other network provider, needs to ensure that chargers are operational, available, and reasonably convenient for people to use. If that means by opening up to a larger set of users (either by building a crap ton more cars than they did back in the day, or providing an adapter/connector for other vehicles to use), then they should be prepared to expand the network to support those users.
And this is precisely what Tesla is better able to do by charging a premium for access to non-Tesla users. It should help pay for even faster expansion to keep up with increasing demand than would be possible if all the users were Tesla users and paying $0.10/kWh less for use.
You don’t remember the Tesla website touting the exclusive supercharging network with xxx number of chargers?
It was there when I ordered.
I’m not opposed to opening up the Superchargers. I do oppose opening them as-is with short cords and stall layout that doesn’t work for most EVs without blocking other stalls.
RTPEV
Active Member
I agree with @MP3Mike 's assessment...they are likely waiting for NEVI funding to hit before finishing off in process sites.
I track non-Tesla DC fastcharger rollout daily and have found that the pace of nearly all providers has recently fell off a cliff. The exception would be ChargePoint and EV Connect that continue to roll out new 50 and 62.5kW units a car dealerships, but since those wouldn't be eligible for NEVI funding anyway, there was no reason to pause deployment there.
EVgo has recently started to pick up deployments after a practically net negative "growth" period as they decommissioned many sites in February. During January & February they only opened 15 new sites, and many of those were 100kW sites (again, not eligible for NEVI funding). They have recently started to deploy again, and while several of their recent sites do have 350kW charging, the number of stalls makes them ineligible for NEVI, which probably explains why we are seeing them.
EA, meanwhile opened nothing between Nov 18 and Mar 22, when they opened up two new sites (even though the Tweet mentions 60 stalls opened, most of those were merely re-opening of temporarily closed sites).
RTPEV
Active Member
I certainly don't recall the Tesla website touting it as "exclusive", although for sure it's been touted (and continues to be touted) as a competitive advantage for Tesla.
I don't know if this is the earliest point that Elon mentioned opening up the network, but I found this quote from Sep 24, 2015:
I do agree with you wholeheartedly that rolling it out with the present pedestal configuration and layout is stupid. Hopefully V4 will resolve the issue somewhat, but in the long run I think we need a different site layout. I am very worried about what the impact of Cybertrucks rolling up to V2 and V3 Supercharger sites is going to be.
Nope, definitely not!
We wouldn't even have put our hard-earned money into them.
Tesla had:
1) AC Propulsion EV technology
2) Lotus automotive engineering
3) a good looking design
4) a team of people who all seemed to appreciate the critical value of business, design, AND technology (all 3!)
5) a good business plan (start with supercar that exploits EV technology to be best in class)
and
6) a guy in the back room with a lot of cash who was driven to succeed badly enough that he'd spend every penny of it before giving up.
If any one of these things was missing, we probably would have waited like we did with all of the other want-to-be EV manufacturers trying to get started in the late 2000's.
. . . and here we are today.
The CCS2 Superchargers overseas that I used a couple of weeks ago had the short cables. Other vehicles would be challenged if their charge ports aren't in the right places. I never saw any other vehicles trying to use the Tesla stations.
Depending on where you were, Tesla Superchargers can be more expensive, so many people will prefer other locations. This is especially true of people with Ionity deals.
It was during the vacation season, when the other networks were busy, that the Tesla short cords were shown to be a problem.
Needs v4 (and Magic Dock in NA) to be rolled out.
Watts_Up
Well-Known Member
Certainly going in the right direction:
Yes it is encouraging. But in the comments, a person asked about charging idle fees. It doesn’t look like that will happen anytime soon. EA responded basically that they think people simply need to be “educated”. Um no.
RayK
Active Member
To "educate" most people today, it seems like you need a stick instead of a carrot. That's been the way of most public charging providers with their idle fee.
A way to do both at the same time is to offer an incentive (i.e. a session discount or rebate) for moving promptly, while at the same time instituting an idle fee that increases over time. If you disconnect and move with 5 minutes of your charge ending, you get some money back. It could be a percentage of your total or a $/kWh discount, as opposed to a fixed cost, to prevent people from gaming the system. Like connecting for only a minute to get $1 back.
A graduated idle fee can work like a modified Tesla approach: 5 minute grace period and whatever rebate you are entitled to. Then $0.50 per minute for the first 10 minutes and forfeiture of the rebate. Then $1.00/min thereafter. Double the fees if the site is at 100% capacity.
Of course new equipment will probably be needed so that each station knows when the vehicle is moved (loop sensors in the ground most likely) and the ability to know when all of the stations are in use (if they don't already know this).
It used to bug me when I would be waiting in line at a gas station and then watch the person at the pump finish up and then go inside the store/mini-mart for a several minutes without first moving their car. I have yet to encounter a similar thing when charging but with the increasing EV population it may only be a matter of time.
Even though people can stay parked at a Tesla supercharger unplugged, I think that is rare. I think the idle fee works pretty well when implemented properly and doesn’t need to be overly complicated. Tesla’s method of only charging idle fees if over 50% is a nice benefit as well.
beatle
Active Member
I wonder if part of the reason (or the only reason) they don't charge idle fees is that they can't do it reliably. If I plug in and go to get something to eat for 20 minutes while I charge, and I come back to find that not only the session crashed, but I was charged 15 minutes' worth of idle fees, I'd be doubly furious.
Tesla doesn't seem to have this issue, however. I plugged in once and took for granted that I'd be charged up when I got back from lunch, but instead I only found a message on the car saying the session did not start. No idle fee. Frustrating for sure, but it wasn't insult to injury.
It is very possible. I have seen videos where EA charging stations still showed people plugged in even though they were not physically there.
This actually did happen to me once at an EA station.
I plugged in on a road trip because I needed to pick some things up at Walmart anyway. About time I got inside, I got a text saying my car had stopped charging and, if I didn't move in 5 min (IIRC?) would be charged idle fees. I had to immediately set down what I had gathered and tromp out to the charging station to unplug. It had added very little charge, clearly, a fault in their equipment.
I'm glad to hear that Rob took the initiative to try his own medicine. Maybe he'll steer EA in a positive direction.
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