Elon Confirms S & X Are Chopped Liver

[tomas]

The Model S was never positioned in the lineup like a Nissan GTR. It’s also not an Acura NSX. Those vehicles are not produced in any meaningful volume compared to the rest of the line.

Model S clearly is meant to be along the lines of a 5/7 series or S class. And if BMW/Merc stopped updating those, they would be losing customers in droves.

Wait a sec. let’s talk BMW. Made their mass market bones with 2002. Solidified with 3 series intro and added 5 to move upmarket for lower volume but more margin. Then much later added 7. Tesla going the other way. Used niche large luxury sedan/suv margin and halo to fund mass market entry. Sure, they may return attention to halo cars. After mass market success and profitability.

 

[jboy210]

Model S clearly is meant to be along the lines of a 5/7 series or S class. And if BMW/Merc stopped updating those, they would be losing customers in droves.

They do not update those cars that much. Look at a BMW 7 from 2015 and now (G11/G12). A few change to lights and minor body panels. The previous version (F*) was largely the same from 2008 to 2015. The interiors and exteriors are purposely derivative with a few minor tweaks except at major revisions.

 

[john85775]

They do not update those cars that much. Look at a BMW 7 from 2015 and now (G11/G12). A few change to lights and minor body panels. The previous version (F*) was largely the same from 2008 to 2015. The interiors and exteriors are purposely derivative with a few minor tweaks except at major revisions.

Yeah, little changes like varying wheelbases, multiple powertrain options - stuff like that doesn't take much engineering nor advanced production investment.

So we should all be happy with the S/X and its outdated charging, battery tech, and class-trailing NVH. Hell, we don't need the coat hangers and fold-down armrests (like the Model 3 has) -- cuz range and supercharging, right?

No need to invest any cycles in updating any of that stuff. Just take your Raven motor and price cuts and STFU; Tesla just needs to communicate how much better the S/X are, right?

 

[jboy210]

Yeah, little changes like varying wheelbases, multiple powertrain options - stuff like that doesn't take much engineering nor advanced production investment.

So we should all be happy with the S/X and its outdated charging, battery tech, and class-trailing NVH. Hell, we don't need the coat hangers and fold-down armrests (like the Model 3 has) -- cuz range and supercharging, right?

No need to invest any cycles in updating any of that stuff. Just take your Raven motor and price cuts and STFU; Tesla just needs to communicate how much better the S/X are, right?

Agree about the ecstatic changes. I could care less about coat hangers and fold-down arms rests. And I will definitely Raven motors, bigger standard battery capacity, longer range and lower prices over that stuff

 

[Twiglett]

You mean the improved range in the Model S from 265 to 350+ isn’t an improvement.
Or updating motors or major suspension updates isn’t an improvement?
So instead of that you’d prefer a coat hanger because the model 3 has one.
How odd

 

[john85775]

You mean the improved range in the Model S from 265 to 350+ isn’t an improvement.
Or updating motors or major suspension updates isn’t an improvement?
So instead of that you’d prefer a coat hanger because the model 3 has one.
How odd

Once the model 3 rolled out, the updates to the S/X were lazy at best. The R&D capex is not in the product but in things like gigafactory .

No, what is odd is that they have not added any of those creature comforts in the vehicle despite putting them in the lower end car.

 

[john85775]

Agree about the ecstatic changes. I could care less about coat hangers and fold-down arms rests. And I will definitely Raven motors, bigger standard battery capacity, longer range and lower prices over that stuff

Right, because you can’t have coat hangers and long range. Not possible to do that. Oh wait… They are both in the model 3…

Anyhow, we now await Elon to communicate with us how the S/X are compelling while the company slashes prices and orders fall through the floor.

 

[bob_p]

Another way to interpret Musk's comments - he wants the focus to be on the higher volume models 3, Y and pickup. There has been some negative publicity about the drop in S/X sales - which was inevitable, since there were quite a few of those customers buying S/X as the most expensive vehicles they'd ever purchased because 3/Y weren't available.

However... S/X are still important models to Tesla - because they are selling in high enough volume to take on the other luxury brands.

A refresh of the interior is inevitable - but not needed right now. When FSD is ready, Tesla will likely redesign the interiors of all vehicles to focus more on entertainment and less on driving - and when they do that, we should see those changes more consistent between S/X and 3/Y.

There are a few changes Tesla needs to make to keep S/X competitive, even against the other manufacturers bringing out their products in that price range:

• 400 mile range
• V3 supercharging
• Re-establish S/X as Tesla's "luxury" models by offering items such as free supercharging, free 4 year/50K mile maintenance, included 8 year/100K mile extended warranty, and getting priority for service (over the lower priced models), and possibly bundling FSD for free in all S/X

And, for all of their vehicles, they need to address smartphone integration - either provide Apple CarPlay and Android Auto - or provide an alternative to add features like voice-to-text/text-to-voice for text messages/e-mails and access to a 3rd party app store (Audible...).

 

[tpekid88]

I'm actually one of those that is in the market for a Model X. But it's hard to pull the trigger now thinking that in case Elon doesn't keep his word and updates the interior 6 months down the line. If the vehicle is due for a refresh and we buy now, the vehicle price drop will be significant. Those would want the new interior or new look vs the old. You'll instantly loose about 25% value even though the tech is well advance.

 

[alloverx]

Tesla is not a small company. They should be able to (do a minor) refresh of the S interior/exterior whilst doing 3/Y. And roll it out at the appropriate time. Say 12 months before the Y comes out to maintain momentum and news.
If not, it implies money is crazy tight.
And yes they have made plenty of mistakes, like every other car company; since they cant read the future.
I think Tesla is focused more on the core EV engineering, with occasional Elons ideas.
1. Ideally do the Y before 3 but cant read the future
2. Role out new features to S & X, and then 6 months later put them in the 3.
3. Have model years and have the discipline to roll out exterior changes every 2 years.

In terms of the Acura NSX, it aint selling and is a dumb ego product (its history is interesting). Does not fit the brand or market perception. The C8 Corvette is about to crush it.

 

[Twiglett]

Once the model 3 rolled out, the updates to the S/X were lazy at best. The R&D capex is not in the product but in things like gigafactory .

No, what is odd is that they have not added any of those creature comforts in the vehicle despite putting them in the lower end car.

lazy at best?
brand new, unique to S &X suspension, New motors etc all arrived after Model 3 rolled out.
Not sure I fully appreciate how you are experiencing time. . .
Obviously they are not prioritizing the things that really matter

 

[jboy210]

I'm actually one of those that is in the market for a Model X. But it's hard to pull the trigger now thinking that in case Elon doesn't keep his word and updates the interior 6 months down the line. If the vehicle is due for a refresh and we buy now, the vehicle price drop will be significant. Those would want the new interior or new look vs the old. You'll instantly loose about 25% value even though the tech is well advance.

If you really need that sort of "investment protection" than perhaps a Tesla is not a car for you.

Tesla is like a software or computer company. Always working on new features and figuring out how to lower costs. This means they ship updates and changes when they are ready, and not on some arbitrary time constraint like a model year (whatever that means). So Tesla's do not have model years, just configurations and dates they were made. This may mean a car made in March is missing features that shipped in April. And an options package that ran $5,000 in May is now standard equipment and they raised the price of the car by $2,000 (this happened to me in July 2018).

Personally I have no issues with this. Because it also means they are continually making my car better. Through free software updates that have increased the range, top speed, acceleration, Autopilot, and charging speed; given me dash and side camera recording, added a security system, summoning, and whole host of other features. All done months or years after purchasing the car and at no additional cost to me. In a more traditional car, to get these features I would have had to trade in the car for the next year's model and got really hammered on depreciation.

 

[jeffaajones]

On today's Tesla investor conference call, a question was asked about stabilizing Model S and X sales.

Elon's response: "S & X are nice. Without them we can't spell S3XY. Hehe. I love the main reason. Hehe. A reason is we want to spell S3XY. Not the main reason. The story is fundamentally 3 and Y. "

He then said S/X is not important in the long term, and in the context of the 3, Y, pickup truck and semi, S & X will stabilize at 80k-100k per year and represent around 5% of total sales essentially as a niche product.

This came after reiterating there will be no refresh for Model S / X.

But it was the first part of his response -- that the models are basically living on in the product portfolio as a placeholder -- that made me queasy about replacing our 2018 X with a Raven.

This post in the roundtable echoes my concern:
Tesla, TSLA & the Investment World: the 2019 Investors' Roundtable

I think that the S and X will continue as the flagship. The size of the S for me makes it a much better road trip car. It’s so easy to load it up with so much stuff for a trip. I would still recommend the S or X for those who want a larger car.

 

[spectrum1337]

My really hot take is that the 3 shouldn't exist and they should've just built a $50k Y to start off.

Small sedans are dying in favor of CUVs, so why launch a small sedan?

Because the CUV will get less range. So you start with the small sedan. 2-3 years later by the time to launch the CUV cost/range improvements make the non premium CUV actually affordable.

 

[john85775]

lazy at best?
brand new, unique to S &X suspension, New motors etc all arrived after Model 3 rolled out.
Not sure I fully appreciate how you are experiencing time. . .
Obviously they are not prioritizing the things that really matter

New suspension? You can get these aftermarket. It doesn’t take much to make that change.

New motor? You mean the same exact motor that is in the Model 3?

Yes, lazy.

 

[john85775]

I'm actually one of those that is in the market for a Model X. But it's hard to pull the trigger now thinking that in case Elon doesn't keep his word and updates the interior 6 months down the line. If the vehicle is due for a refresh and we buy now, the vehicle price drop will be significant. Those would want the new interior or new look vs the old. You'll instantly loose about 25% value even though the tech is well advance.

Elon not keep his word? That never happens....

Given ours lost 40% in 7 months, 25% would be a gift.

 

[glide]

They do not update those cars that much. Look at a BMW 7 from 2015 and now (G11/G12). A few change to lights and minor body panels. The previous version (F*) was largely the same from 2008 to 2015. The interiors and exteriors are purposely derivative with a few minor tweaks except at major revisions.

I agree the exterior remains largely unchanged. And I’m fine with that. Pretty sure any 5 or 7 series has a HUD, bird’s eye view cameras, a host of driver assistance features, and plenty of other interior items refreshed.

Sitting in a 2015 vs 2019 7 Series is a very different experience.

The worst part is, Tesla has less to update. How hard is it to put in a HUD or offer some new Performance seats? If I’m paying $100K for a car every few years I expect improvements in comfort and technology.

 

[JAG]

If indeed Elon stays true to his goal of making a change for all auto manufacturers over to sustainable strategies .... then he might want to give other auto manufacturers a little taste of EV sales boost and profits to prod them in that general direction . Further innovating the profitable luxury segment even further away from the completions current capabilities would run counter to that. If you really want air manufacturers gunning for MODEL S you don’t refresh it .

 

[AdamMacDon]

It's not really any different than 7-Series is to BMW. I suspect most of their profit comes from high-volume, lower margin vehicles like the 3-series.

Except the 7 series actually has a nicer interior than the 3 series. There is no way any person could claim the Model S/X interior beats the Model 3 (and presumably Y). You buy a 7 series for extreme comfort and status, with the Model S you only really get status, and I guess another 100km of range and a slightly faster 0-100. Hard to justify the 2X price increase when the quality of the interior is so much worse.

 

[re04586]

There is no way any person could claim the Model S/X interior beats the Model 3

Really? Many people I know prefer the interior of S and X, in particular the 2 screens and it being embedded in the dash versus bolted on.