Elon Confirms S & X Are Chopped Liver

[VT_EE]

It's not competitive because of the interior, which is maybe acceptable in a Crown Victoria from 2007. It only beat those brands because the propulsion method was so much superior. You're beyond naive if you think ICE manufacturers won't switch over to electric sooner or later. That is Elon's goal after all. When they do, the Model S and X will be nearly worthless brands. Your whole attitude with the "If you love the S and want a completely new version, sorry... you’ll have to make do with incremental improvement or wait a while." line is exactly what's wrong with the Tesla community as a whole. So short sighted it's amazing. But sure, dismiss me as a hater and move on with your life

It's naive to think that legacy automakers can just "switch over" powertrains. Don't get me wrong, I would love it if other companies sold EVs with comparable powertrains at the cost Tesla is able to, but it's not going to happen anytime soon. Many people underestimate the amount of technology in the battery, BMS, inverter, motors, etc of Tesla vehicles. You'd just get to that level overnight. Just look at the e-tron and i-pace. Both are beautifully assembled, but what's under the "hood" is crap.

 

[wooter]

It’s actually already happening folks:

• No V3 charging.
• Firmware updates rolling out behind the Mode 3 curve.
• Interior and exterior stuck in the mud.
• Down to one (ONE!) production line.
• Circling the drain on pricing and residual value.
• Feature de-contenting (sunroof, seat ventilation, MX center console, etc - all gone)
• Cant even be bothered to update the key fob system much less address the yellowing screens

Raven and suspension are nothing more than Elon peeing on our collective legs and communicating that it’s raining.

I'm not sure if you're sarcastic or for real. Because the above list is full of errors. I mean, go check any EV news/blog the last week and you'd notice you're wrong. Maybe on the feature de-contenting, but then I think of the sunroof or seat ventilation in my last rental, or the MX center console nobody got...

 

[john85775]

I'm not sure if you're sarcastic or for real. Because the above list is full of errors. I mean, go check any EV news/blog the last week and you'd notice you're wrong. Maybe on the feature de-contenting, but then I think of the sunroof or seat ventilation in my last rental, or the MX center console nobody got...

I don’t have to check a blog - I own a Model X. I live with the reality of owning Elon’s second fiddle.

 

[tomas]

You're cute man, look how mad you get when someone suggests this company needs to improve things. Tesla fanboys man, haha!

Fanboy is a sophomoric attempt at insult. There’s plenty Tesla can and should improve. But their decision to focus on 3, Y, pickup, semi (I.e. vehicles with larger markets) is correct.

 

[john85775]

Not asking for much.... tech parity with the Model 3 beyond a motor would be great. 2170 cells? 250 kWh charging speed?

Perhaps creature comfort parity too... Door pockets? Coat hangers? Arm rests in the rear seat?

Nothing here is groundbreaking, just have the enhancements on the Model 3 trickle up.

It's been a couple of years....

 

[Guy V]

When you look at the actual energy usage on an S, including charging losses, and vampire drain, and look at the power generation mix of electricity in my area, the S isn't any better than an ICE. In the future, with more renewables? Sure, but in the near term, no.

As I've said the Germans have mostly caught up, you can remotely cool down the new BMWs.
The AC in my S is louder, and generates far more vibration than an ICE in any modern luxury car.

Not legally in many states if you have to remote start it to do so.

 

[Guy V]

I mean it sounds crazy even to me but if they'd set the goal post at $40-$45k instead of $35k they'd probably have done a lot better. Volume would've been lower but they also wouldn't have had to build out as much capacity (and a tent) to build 1/2 as many cars.

I guess some would complain that building more cars is helping the planet but even if they get to 500k cars / year that's only about 3% of US sales (and 500k is a global number) .

Drawing in more manufacturers by making cars profitably (as is happening with the S & X) arguably does more to accelerate the transition.

I am sure the goal post is actually higher than 40-45K. $35K is the starting point to get you interested but the steps up are very enticing. A whole lot of people find the M3P pretty irresistible once they start configuring.

 

[Guy V]

It's not competitive because of the interior, which is maybe acceptable in a Crown Victoria from 2007. It only beat those brands because the propulsion method was so much superior. You're beyond naive if you think ICE manufacturers won't switch over to electric sooner or later. That is Elon's goal after all. When they do, the Model S and X will be nearly worthless brands. Your whole attitude with the "If you love the S and want a completely new version, sorry... you’ll have to make do with incremental improvement or wait a while." line is exactly what's wrong with the Tesla community as a whole. So short sighted it's amazing. But sure, dismiss me as a hater and move on with your life

OMG, you don't think all the relentless redecorating of car interiors decade after decade was actually to make them better! LOL

Change for the sake of change is a waste of resource because you don't have any new ideas.

I guess some people will always fall for the NEW, IMPROVED and Rich Corinthian Leather.

 

[tomas]

OMG, you don't think all the relentless redecorating of car interiors decade after decade was actually to make them better! LOL

Change for the sake of change is a waste of resource because you don't have any new ideas.

I guess some people will always fall for the NEW, IMPROVED and Rich Corinthian Leather.

 

[danielrucci]

Out of curiosity does anyone know what kind of margin they make on the S and X?

 

[Saghost]

Out of curiosity does anyone know what kind of margin they make on the S and X?

Historically they've said they had 20-30% gross margins on the S and X. Not sure if they gave a separate number for them this quarter - the only one I heard was a 18% gross margin which I believe was for all the cars combined.

 

[john85775]

OMG, you don't think all the relentless redecorating of car interiors decade after decade was actually to make them better! LOL

Change for the sake of change is a waste of resource because you don't have any new ideas.

I guess some people will always fall for the NEW, IMPROVED and Rich Corinthian Leather.

I'd settle for "change for the sake of Model 3 parity."

 

[Guy V]

I'd settle for "change for the sake of Model 3 parity."

Then just buy the Model 3, you can option it up pretty well if you insist on spending more.

 

[jdw]

Not asking for much.... tech parity with the Model 3 beyond a motor would be great. 2170 cells? 250 kWh charging speed?

Perhaps creature comfort parity too... Door pockets? Coat hangers? Arm rests in the rear seat?

Nothing here is groundbreaking, just have the enhancements on the Model 3 trickle up.

It's been a couple of years....

While the 2170 batteries have greater energy density, the 18650's smaller size allows for more of them in a pack the size of the S packs = higher power output for the larger motors. I don't believe Tesla could fit enough of the 2170 in the Model S pack to deliver the performance they currently have. Certainly, the Model 3 pack cannot deliver enough power for a Performance S. They work well for the 3 as the 3 is lighter and has smaller motors and the higher energy density = range.

Model 3 74kWh Pack: 4416 cells in groups of 46 cells per brick with 96 bricks in 4 modules = 350V and "over" 300kW - about 1000 amps
Model S 102kWh Pack: 8256 cells in groups of 516 cells in 16 modules = 400V and 575 kW - about 1500 Amps

The Performance S rear motor alone can draw well over 300kW ... I believe that Tesla will move to a new battery technology & design and skip the 2170 for the S, X, and the Roadster. Size doesn't matter as much with the pickup or the semi, so who knows there.

I like the sporty and nimble driving experience in the 3, but better cupholders, door pockets and coat hangers made no difference to me. I'm a BMW refugee, so crappy cupholders are normal and expected.

 

[john85775]

While the 2170 batteries have greater energy density, the 18650's smaller size allows for more of them in a pack the size of the S packs = higher power output for the larger motors. I don't believe Tesla could fit enough of the 2170 in the Model S pack to deliver the performance they currently have. Certainly, the Model 3 pack cannot deliver enough power for a Performance S. They work well for the 3 as the 3 is lighter and has smaller motors and the higher energy density = range.

Model 3 74kWh Pack: 4416 cells in groups of 46 cells per brick with 96 bricks in 4 modules = 350V and "over" 300kW - about 1000 amps
Model S 102kWh Pack: 8256 cells in groups of 516 cells in 16 modules = 400V and 575 kW - about 1500 Amps

The Performance S rear motor alone can draw well over 300kW ... I believe that Tesla will move to a new battery design and skip the 2170 for the S, X and the Roadster.

I like the sporty and nimble driving experience in the 3, but better cupholders, door pockets and coat hangers made no difference to me. I'm a BMW refugee, so crappy cupholders are normal and expected.

Great. Now do 250 kWh charging.

 

[jdw]

Got 200kW thanks. Still waiting for a supercharger that can do even that!

 

[ohmman]

I don’t have to check a blog - I own a Model X. I live with the reality of owning Elon’s second fiddle.

I also own a Model X, and an S. Older ones. If they're Elon's second fiddle, it turns out I'm fine with second fiddle. Maybe it's all in the ear of the listener.

Tesla certainly can do better by these vehicles, and definitely will to some degree. They could probably do immensely better, but probably won't. I've been around long enough to know that, and Elon basically confirmed it with the notes you've laid out here. But all of that said, I love my 5+ year old Model S. I chose not to trade it for a Model 3, despite that having been my plan all along, because I couldn't bear to part with it. I still think it's a better car for me than almost every one I pass on the road. And therein, I think, lies a better explanation for the demand problem. There are plenty of other drivers like me for whom an upgrade isn't necessary because we still love our cars. So I won't be getting a new S anytime soon, not because it's not a compelling vehicle or because Elon hasn't done enough upgrades, or whatever other reason. I won't be getting one because I already have a great car and life is too short to be worried about whether it's great enough.

 

[bayx]

 

[Gordon87]

Porsche Taycan it is then next time.

From what little I have seen out there, it looks like the size of the interior of the Taycan is more like the Model 3.

 

[KSilver2000]

I like the overall design. Though I wish it was more the mission E. Only thing I hate about the Taycan is the ginormous head/taillights. Why??!
There’s no mistaking that coming or leaving.