Elon Confirms S & X Are Chopped Liver

[Sanjayjpatel]

Luxury buyers want options and to feel they have the best. To not have a moonroof option or to not have interior color options Is a deal breaker for some. The charging speeds / not having the latest technology is also a deal breaker when comparing to 3. Right now the 3 has the best tech.

To me, it feels like Tesla is going for cost rather than luxury. Many current buyers won’t like that. It may be good for Tesla financials in short run but then long term success will depend on having the best autonomous software.

I have to also say that I’d be curious if someone tried a competing luxury vehicle for a month and came back to Tesla, would they still end up choosing a X or S. As others have pointed out, there are some real compromises with the power train, software, etc.

Eventually someone, maybe Tesla, will serve the luxury market. But I guess true luxury would be to sit in the back seat right?

I just had a really bad service experience, no valet (they stopped doing it) I had to wait 40 min for a enterprise rent a car, it was an S but smaller battery than my X and less options. I felt like I was in a Toyota dealership that didn’t smell like oil.

 

[chuynh]

Anyone notice that showrooms don't even have a model S on display anymore? I live in so.cal and been to three or four different showrooms and the model S has vanished. This to me indicates it's getting some tinkering done to it. Maybe I'm crazy....

 

[jerry33]

Anyone notice that showrooms don't even have a model S on display anymore? I live in so.cal and been to three or four different showrooms and the model S has vanished. This to me indicates it's getting some tinkering done to it. Maybe I'm crazy....

It's more likely there are very few, if any pre-Raven left, and the Ravens are being shipped to customers.

 

[jerry33]

I have to also say that I’d be curious if someone tried a competing luxury vehicle for a month and came back to Tesla, would they still end up choosing a X or S. As others have pointed out, there are some real compromises with the power train, software, etc.

As long as they didn't mind the lack of performance, 50% less range, no software upgrades, no fast charging network. In other words, if they hardly ever drive the car, the alternatives are fine. And remember, there's no difference in the battery chemistry between the 3 and S/X, just the form factor. I suspect the next battery upgrade for the S/X will be Maxwell, but that won't be for a couple of years.

 

[Fred42]

I'm actually one of those that is in the market for a Model X. But it's hard to pull the trigger now thinking that in case Elon doesn't keep his word and updates the interior 6 months down the line. If the vehicle is due for a refresh and we buy now, the vehicle price drop will be significant. Those would want the new interior or new look vs the old. You'll instantly loose about 25% value even though the tech is well advance.

Elon didn't say never on the interior. If it happens next year, I wouldn't say he broke his word. There was heavy rumor of an interior refresh in September. He wanted people to know that's not happening.

 

[tomas]

This might be long, sorry. Hope a few of you identify.

For those who decry the minimalist Tesla design aesthetic as “not luxurious” please understand that there is no one definition of luxury... it’s a very personal thing.

I have a 2012 P85 which I’ve owned since new. This car is from before parking sensors, folding mirrors, center console... even yacht floor options. It is the paragon of the minimalist design. Every time I look at the old school metal rear view mirror, the clean bumpers without sensor circles, the simple line of the gen 1 seats, and even the original dash top without visible defrost vents, the interior without a thousand places to attract crap... I appreciate the design approach.

When I first got into cars in the 70s, American luxury cars were cushy and full of glitz. I had a Mercedes 280 SE, a BMW 2002, and other euro imports with anatomical seats, simple interiors, no glitz. That was my idea of luxury, and I stick with it. The ideal which I never owned? Maybe a Ferrari. Radio, automatic windows, auto transmission... not even an option. I don’t recall, but would be surprised if you could even get AC.

What did these cars have? Classic lines. Minimalist classic interiors. Less to go wrong. And, in all cases, performance!

Luxury is what makes you feel like royalty, and that’s what does it for me.

When I sit in today’s Audi or Mercedes, I can appreciate why some people like them and find them luxurious. But to me, their instrumentation is overwrought, lcd screens are an afterthought, and seats/stashes make me feel as if I’m in a womb, not a car.

So the S is a great car with a great design. For me. I don’t want it to evolve into another Audi or jag. I want it to stay an S. I like the raven updates. Mostly performance. When they supersede it, I hope they keep the same design aesthetic and blow my mind again.

I won’t force my idea of luxury on others, but please don’t impose yours on me!

 

[AdamMacDon]

Fanboy is a sophomoric attempt at insult. There’s plenty Tesla can and should improve. But their decision to focus on 3, Y, pickup, semi (I.e. vehicles with larger markets) is correct.

Says the guy who could only muster a lame attempt at an ad hominem by suggesting my math skills are lacking. Show us all how mature you are. As the owner of a corporation and with my previous experience in the auto industry, I'm sure Tesla could manage to update the seats and door panels and not break the bank. If you fail to comprehend how insulting people who state the FACT that the MS interior is lacking compared to the competition OR their base model car makes you a fanboy, I'm frankly amazed.

 

[tomas]

Says the guy who could only muster a lame attempt at an ad hominem by suggesting my math skills are lacking. Show us all how mature you are. As the owner of a corporation and with my previous experience in the auto industry, I'm sure Tesla could manage to update the seats and door panels and not break the bank. If you fail to comprehend how insulting people who state the FACT that the MS interior is lacking compared to the competition OR their base model car makes you a fanboy, I'm frankly amazed.

Ignored

 

[wooter]

I don’t have to check a blog - I own a Model X. I live with the reality of owning Elon’s second fiddle.

That's funny, I have one too. And the Model X is not built on the same line as the Model 3, so that already means they have at least two lines, which already disproves one of your arguments.

 

[wooter]

To not have a moonroof option or to not have interior color options Is a deal breaker for some.

I've bought 5 convertibles in my life, thinking I couldn't live without it. I even specced and ordered a 911 convertible, and then cancelled the order after driving the Model X, and after coming to the realisation that whenever my daughter was in the back seat, the roof would stay up because she'd hate the wind in her face. I've had blue leather, red and black leather in them, and spent way to much time over all color and interior and exterior combo's.

Having all that experience, I still think my Model X is a better car, because it combines everything that was good about the cars I liked, together with everything those cars lacked and I wanted. And it turns out that opening the roof and sitting in other people's exhaust fumes ini the cold or heat is not what I want anymore. But being driven in a powerful car and being relaxed is something I want.

So, is the moonroof a dealbreaker? Maybe for people who mistakenly believe they prefer the outdoor exhaust fumes instead of the filtered interior air.

I've had 2 loaners with the moonroof, and both times opened it, to close it quickly because I didn't like the smell and noise. And that from someone who would drive winter and summer with the fabric roof open...

 

[john85775]

That's funny, I have one too. And the Model X is not built on the same line as the Model 3, so that already means they have at least two lines, which already disproves one of your arguments.

Here's the transcript from this quarter's earnings call. It's on one line, staffed with one shift.

Joseph Osha

Hello, hello. Listen -- listening to you talk about mix here and the fact that you're running a single shift of your S and X facilities in Fremont, I'm wondering is there maybe some potential to reconfigure the floor space there a bit? And is that something that you're thinking about?

Elon Musk

Well, we are reconfiguring the floor space at Fremont and there's quite a lot of factory space that's probably taken up with the S, X parts warehousing, parts for the S, X line. And we don't really need that, so that's where we're putting a lot of the Model Y activity. Jerome, do you want to…​

 

[wooter]

So you feel offended that a company is reshuffling space in their factory?

 

[jebinc]

At least they could have thrown on the garnish...

 

[john85775]

So you feel offended that a company is reshuffling space in their factory?

No, I'm disappointed they are all but abandoning innovating the S/X -- and can't be bothered to bring the vehicles to parity with the 3/Y.

 

[wooter]

No, I'm disappointed they are all but abandoning innovating the S/X -- and can't be bothered to bring the vehicles to parity with the 3/Y.

That is something you can't tell from a earnings call... Like I said, companies are not eager to tell about a new upcoming model, to not impact the sales of the current model. And obviously, no company currently works to bring older vehicles to parity with newer ones.

 

[john85775]

That is something you can't tell from a earnings call... Like I said, companies are not eager to tell about a new upcoming model, to not impact the sales of the current model.

1) Companies invest in things they care about.
2) There's a truth-telling and disclosure standard for investor calls well beyond product marketing.
3) Tesla has to take care of shareholders, and nothing brings shareholder value like the promise of future growth.

And obviously, no company currently works to bring older vehicles to parity with newer ones.

Huh? I can't think of one that doesn't -- well, except Tesla, I mean.

 

[Uncle Paul]

My view is different. The Model S is still the highest performance vehicle Tesla makes for personal transportation. It has the most power, best acceleration, best ride (air suspension),and has the greatest utility/storage. It can tow if necessary and can lower for handling/efficiency or raise for additonal ground clearance.

It still has the most luxurious interior, the quietest ride and the greatest range.

The Model X has the most open interior with panorama windshield, can tow 5,000 lbs standard. It has power doors front, back and rear hatch. It can carry the most, is most comfortable for the family dog, can seat up to 7. It has 6 cup holders plus storage in the doors for water bottles and gear.

These still have no real competition in production. They are still the top of the line for Tesla and thinking they are not relevant is a big mistake.

The X is the easiest to get in/out of. The falcon wing doors provide amazing access and a sense of drama no traditional 4 door slammer can equal. It is also the only Tesla that can dance and put on a light show.

Most of the Model 3 tech has trickled down from the S/X. The big display, the skate board battery pack providing low center of gravity and enhanced safety. Model 3 uses the same Supercharger network, the same charging protocol, the same autopilot/navigation systems.

In the future features will continue to trickle down and back up the line, with the S/X using the latest motors/tech that is developed for the Model 3/Y and the features like insane/ludicris model are being made available for the 3.

They are all part of one big (and getting bigger) happy Tesla family. Each offers their own unique capabilities, and increase the options for people wanting to get out of their gassers.

Model 3 will later get tow packages, air suspensions, key fobs, and other tech, previously only available in the bigger models S&X.

S3XY indeed!

I believe that Elon personally mostly uses the Model X when hauling the kids, and the amazing looking Model S when impressing the ladies as well as the investors.

 

[wooter]

Besides, I kinda like the fact that my 2 year old Model X isn't already obviously out of date by a newer model. And the Model 3 and the upcoming Model Y still won't have the same features my X has.

 

[pete8314]

Posted this over in the S forum, but seems applicable here ...

===

Having recently updated to a Performance Raven from a 2015 85D, I was amazed at how much the car had improved over the past four years. After reading a number of posts where the general theme was "the S is dead if they don't upgrade it", I thought about what they actually had changed since my last car.

By upgrading, I lost:

Pano Roof
Leather Seats
FUSC

But ... gained quite a long list of changes or improvements from 2015:

[list deleted to keep the reply short]

And, the Performance L was only about $5K more than the 85D in 2015.

The main things that didn't change in some way was the body (behind the nose, above the rocker panels and in front of the diffuser anyway), the doors (no pockets) and the air vents.

Just sayin' ...

That's a great list (genuinely). But I guess my point is that most new buyers (people new to Tesla, considering buying a Tesla vs. Audi/Merc/BMW/Porsche) don't care about most of that stuff. I recategorized your list to better illustrate the point. Some of the categorizations are debatable, for sure, but I think th general premise is accurate - most the changes won't means squat to someone looking to move from a legacy brand. Elon has always said that S & X (and 3) should be a compelling case regardless of the fact it's an EV. I think S & X are losing that battle to the likes of the A7, for example. That's not to say S & X can't do loads of things that an A7 cannot, but to complete, I think you have to cover the basics at this point, fart mode and Netflix are nice extras.

And by 'Tesla Nerd", I mean virtually all of us here

 

[jdw]

That's a great list (genuinely). But I guess my point is that most new buyers (people new to Tesla, considering buying a Tesla vs. Audi/Merc/BMW/Porsche) don't care about most of that stuff. I recategorized your list to better illustrate the point. Some of the categorizations are debatable, for sure, but I think th general premise is accurate - most the changes won't means squat to someone looking to move from a legacy brand. Elon has always said that S & X (and 3) should be a compelling case regardless of the fact it's an EV. I think S & X are losing that battle to the likes of the A7, for example. That's not to say S & X can't do loads of things that an A7 cannot, but to complete, I think you have to cover the basics at this point, fart mode and Netflix are nice extras.

And by 'Tesla Nerd", I mean virtually all of us here

Wow - thanks for that! My post was really about the statement that the S has remained the same for years, which it clearly has not. The way you laid it out and presented it from a new buyer point of view makes the point that there could be additional improvements that would certainly help in competitive comparisons. Not to mention things we would all enjoy.

My list was just, very much off the top of my head, going through the differences from my 2015 85D. Thanks again!