Elon, I love you... but the PowerWall isn't that great...... yet.

[callmesam]

For this use (emergency/rare use for a grid outage of a few hours or longer), I would like to see Tesla allow an owner to tap into the massive (compared to PowerWall) amount of energy in a Model S battery. I can understand why they would not want the wear and tear on the Model S battery for daily use with the grid/time of use but I would rather not purchase more lithium ion batteries from Tesla or a stand alone ICE generator for this purpose. Even better, I can drive my battery to a friend's home to charge and come back with a full battery if needed in a more prolonged outage situation.

I've asked every high level executive at Tesla Motors about the possibility of using the Model S battery as a backup system and getting the same message "NO BUSINESS CASE. YET."

Utilities are grudgingly allowing batteries to be placed in service. But not everywhere. And not in the ways that will pay big dividends to customers.

I personally would be fine to void my battery warranty in order to be able to use the car as a backup, but TM is saying "NOT YET."

Hawaii, CA, Germany will get Model S/X battery backup first when it becomes available.

It just doesn't make sense to have 100,000 x80kWh = 8,000,000 kWh of batteries sitting idle for 23 hours/day.

Elon and JB know best the environment they work in, but I think it's regulatory more than technical.

Pacific Gas and Electric Company today announced it has partnered with Tesla Motors to further evolve vehicle-to-grid (V2G) technology by researching smart
charging - a form of V2G designed to allow remote control charging of electric vehicles connected to the power grid. The project partnership will combine Tesla Motors' leading electric vehicle expertise with PG&E's electric infrastructure experience to explore the ancillary grid benefits of remote charging.

"V2G technology is one of the most promising solutions to help meet our growing energy needs while reducing the transportation sector's impact on the environment", said Brad Whitcomb, vice president of customer products and services for PG&E. "By teaming up with Tesla, we are taking another key step to bring V2G's benefits to our customers."

"We are focusing our initial V2G implementation on smart charging," said JB Straubel, Chief Technology Officer, Tesla Motors. "Smart charging is a form of V2G in which the vehicle does not provide power back to the grid. Instead, the vehicle charging rate is controlled remotely in order to support the operation of the grid or to best match load to the availability of intermittent renewable energy resources such as wind and solar. Tesla Motors' goal in developing V2G is to eventually provide our customers with an option that could reduce their cost of electricity for vehicle charging while supporting greater penetration of renewable energy on the grid."

http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/pge-and-tesla-motors-co-pilot-vehicle-to-grid-research-58005827.html

 

[jerry33]

To add another opinion -- I think suggesting it's not a product worth buying due to it's cost effectiveness is kind of silly in the USA. The grid is quite stable here, power rarely ever goes out, and when it does, it's usually only for a few hours. No one here needs a stand by generator. People don't buy stand by generators or the little portable gas generators because they are needed. It's a luxury purchase. The same is true for the Powerwall. It doesn't need to pay for itself. It just needs to be competitive with other generators. Price/performance-wise, I think the Powerwall is a little pricey, but it's one HUGE advantage, in my humble opinion, that makes it worth it is that it is quiet. Gas powered generators, stand by and stand alone, are both really frickin loud. That alone is worth a ton of money to me.

Try living in my area, you might have a different opinion

 

[MarcG]

I've had a solar system from SolarCity for three years. I was surprised to hear from my rep that they will only be installing the PowerWall for NEW customers. I would be considered a new customer if I added additional panels to my system. They are selling the 10kw PowerWall for $5000 installed. I told him I was surprised that a loyal customer and Tesla owner was being told that new customers took precedence. He said new customers currently can get the PowerWall in Sept/Oct. He did not have a date for existing customers, but didn't expect it to be this year. He also said even if I ordered it directly from Tesla, SolarCity is the only one authorized to install and integrate with their solar system. Disappointing. Has anyone else heard this yet?

That is indeed disappointing, but I'd venture to say that it's probably just a result of the initial supply constrain. Once they get to mass production, I don't see them limiting installations to new SolarCity customers (it would not do Tesla any favors to continue this model indefinitely).

 

[callmesam]

That is indeed disappointing, but I'd venture to say that it's probably just a result of the initial supply constrain. Once they get to mass production, I don't see them limiting installations to new SolarCity customers (it would not do Tesla any favors to continue this model indefinitely).

Elon stated unequivocally at the event that the batteries would be available directly to customers and to installers as well as partners. Any limitation is only on the initial rollout not a structural issue.

 

[ecarfan]

@MattMDK, sadly, what you described does not surprise me. SolarCity can be remarkably uncooperative from the customer's point of view. They have refused to install on my foam roof even though they have installed on other foam roofs on my block. All the houses on my street have the same type of roof structure (2x6 tongue-and-groove on 4x10 beams on 6 ft spacing, no attic). But my monthly electric usage is much lower than average (even with two EVs) so my belief is that SolarCity isn't interested in me as a customer.
They are trying to leverage your interest in the Powerwall into buying more PV panels from them. And they appear to be demanding a $1,000 markup on a 10kWh Powerwall (assuming $500 for labor to install). That's pretty steep.

I've had a solar system from SolarCity for three years. I was surprised to hear from my rep that they will only be installing the PowerWall for NEW customers. I would be considered a new customer if I added additional panels to my system. They are selling the 10kw PowerWall for $5000 installed. I told him I was surprised that a loyal customer and Tesla owner was being told that new customers took precedence. He said new customers currently can get the PowerWall in Sept/Oct. He did not have a date for existing customers, but didn't expect it to be this year. He also said even if I ordered it directly from Tesla, SolarCity is the only one authorized to install and integrate with their solar system. Disappointing. Has anyone else heard this yet?

 

[Foghat]

@MattMDK, sadly, what you described does not surprise me. SolarCity can be remarkably uncooperative from the customer's point of view. They have refused to install on my foam roof even though they have installed on other foam roofs on my block. All the houses on my street have the same type of roof structure (2x6 tongue-and-groove on 4x10 beams on 6 ft spacing, no attic). But my monthly electric usage is much lower than average (even with two EVs) so my belief is that SolarCity isn't interested in me as a customer.
They are trying to leverage your interest in the Powerwall into buying more PV panels from them. And they appear to be demanding a $1,000 markup on a 10kWh Powerwall (assuming $500 for labor to install). That's pretty steep.

I don't think that's the case at all. It is all about economics right now. They are trying to install on homes that make the most sense right now. Demand is through the roof, so they have to prioritize. The result of hat prioritization allows them to build the business faster and bring prices down quicker. I bet once they have the installer base high enough, they will be at your door to meet your needs.

Ive also been put on the less priority list myself. It hurt a little, but I understand better now the bigger picture. Given the high demand, they are just prioritizing to build the business most effectively. It's like that sofie's choice of solar customers... As a result I've called around to others, but still want to go with Solarcity for the promise of a better overall product that meets my needs...

 

[liuping]

@MattMDK, sadly, what you described does not surprise me. SolarCity can be remarkably uncooperative from the customer's point of view. They have refused to install on my foam roof even though they have installed on other foam roofs on my block. All the houses on my street have the same type of roof structure (2x6 tongue-and-groove on 4x10 beams on 6 ft spacing, no attic). But my monthly electric usage is much lower than average (even with two EVs) so my belief is that SolarCity isn't interested in me as a customer.
They are trying to leverage your interest in the Powerwall into buying more PV panels from them. And they appear to be demanding a $1,000 markup on a 10kWh Powerwall (assuming $500 for labor to install). That's pretty steep.

Solar city is not particularly competitive as far as solar installs go (yeah, I know that's a unpopular thing to say on this site).

I recommend using one of the dozens of local installers. Find one with good references and a friendly staff and it will be a more pleasant experience and you'll end up saving money as well.

 

[MattMDK]

I'm assuming the extra $1500 is the installation charge.

 

[ecarfan]

I'm assuming the extra $1500 is the installation charge.

If that is all it is for than that price is extremely high. Installation should take an hour or two for two people, at most.

 

[liuping]

If that is all it is for than that price is extremely high. Installation should take an hour or two for two people, at most.

Setting up a essential load panel and getting the whole thing permitted is going to take more than an hour or two.

At least in San Diego the city inspector comes during a very wide window during the scheduled day. Sometimes he does not come at all. The installer literally sits at the house most of the the day waiting for a 1/2 hour inspection.

 

[ecarfan]

My post referred to the labor hours for installation of just the Powerwall, not the permitting.

 

[Tedkidd]

If you think that's high, sounds like a business opportunity for you.

 

[100thMonkey]

what would prevent owners from using nearby super chargers to supplement their power bill at home, considering how many rely too heavily on super chargers just to save a few bucks as it is, I bet Tesla is reluctant to open up V2H charging just yet.

For this use (emergency/rare use for a grid outage of a few hours or longer), I would like to see Tesla allow an owner to tap into the massive (compared to PowerWall) amount of energy in a Model S battery. I can understand why they would not want the wear and tear on the Model S battery for daily use with the grid/time of use but I would rather not purchase more lithium ion batteries from Tesla or a stand alone ICE generator for this purpose. Even better, I can drive my battery to a friend's home to charge and come back with a full battery if needed in a more prolonged outage situation.

 

[jgs]

what would prevent owners from using nearby super chargers to supplement their power bill at home, considering how many rely too heavily on super chargers just to save a few bucks as it is, I bet Tesla is reluctant to open up V2H charging just yet.

This was discussed over here: http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/show...d-The-Missing-Piece-Event?p=994093#post994093 and following. Summary, if you really want to worry about people (that can afford a Model S or even, in the future, a Model 3) who want to spend their time making minimum wage (or worse) on SC power arbitrage, you can fix it contractually.

 

[schonelucht]

Your usage is so low I don't know how you function. lol. When I'm not home my house "idles" at 30-40kWh/day. Granted it's a large home, but I have no hope of being anywhere near as low as the usage you supplied and neither would the vast majority of Americans or others who could actually afford a PowerWall.

That's about our weekly usage (household of 2, 200 sq meter surface). Just checked : our house is currently drawing 153W and it's not even idle. Lights are on and I am on my laptop which is plugged in. I don't know how I would be able to consume that much. Is your idle consumption mainly AC?

On topic : battery solutions are unappealing for the Dutch market because we sell back to the grid at exactly the same price as we buy and day/night prices are just too close to bother. It's not even useful as a backup since the grid is really stable. I know of one unplanned outage in 7 years and that one lasted little less than an hour.

 

[wk057]

That's about our weekly usage (household of 2, 200 sq meter surface). Just checked : our house is currently drawing 153W and it's not even idle. Lights are on and I am on my laptop which is plugged in. I don't know how I would be able to consume that much. Is your idle consumption mainly AC?

On topic : battery solutions are unappealing for the Dutch market because we sell back to the grid at exactly the same price as we buy and day/night prices are just too close to bother. It's not even useful as a backup since the grid is really stable. I know of one unplanned outage in 7 years and that one lasted little less than an hour.

Pool filter pump is a bulk of summer daily idle usage. It doesn't run all day, but it uses a good chunk when it does.

I also have some network equipment, a few network storage servers, etc as well as a PC I pretty much don't shutdown because I don't generally have time to wait for booting and all.

 

[Tim]

I thought the point of the residential PowerWall was that it heads off the attacks on net-metering. It seems like a PowerWall or two would allow a consumer to completely divorce its solar system from having to back feed the grid(not necessarily go grid free). In states like Hawaii and Arizona where the power companies and PUCs are actively instituting barriers to solar grid interconnection this would completely bypass those restrictions and allow distributed generation to scale.

Rate arbitrage and islanding seem like secondary, but valuable considerations imo.

Has anyone done any payback calcs for Arizona(given the fees) or Hawaii(for a battery plus solar system vs none at all)?

 

[jgs]

I thought the point of the residential PowerWall was that it heads off the attacks on net-metering.

That was exactly my conclusion. As long as this product and ones like it exist, it provides a competitor to the utility for purchase of surplus locally-generated electricity (probably photovoltaic, but could be wind). It will be interesting to see if the utilities try to take advantage of the existence of this competitor to argue that they aren't a monopoly and should not be compelled to offer attractive net metering tariffs.

 

[glhs272]

I thought the point of the residential PowerWall was that it heads off the attacks on net-metering. It seems like a PowerWall or two would allow a consumer to completely divorce its solar system from having to back feed the grid(not necessarily go grid free). In states like Hawaii and Arizona where the power companies and PUCs are actively instituting barriers to solar grid interconnection this would completely bypass those restrictions and allow distributed generation to scale.

Rate arbitrage and islanding seem like secondary, but valuable considerations imo.

Has anyone done any payback calcs for Arizona(given the fees) or Hawaii(for a battery plus solar system vs none at all)?

Help me understand this. Even if a Hawaiian customer buys the Powerwall battery to reduce or eliminate net metering solar power back into the grid, it doesn't matter to the utility. They still get to determine if your solar array gets turned on at all as long as it's still connected to the grid. Thus the only way it to get around utilities' road blocks is to completely disconnect to the grid, right?

 

[mitch672]

Help me understand this. Even if a Hawaiian customer buys the Powerwall battery to reduce or eliminate net metering solar power back into the grid, it doesn't matter to the utility. They still get to determine if your solar array gets turned on at all as long as it's still connected to the grid. Thus the only way it to get around utilities' road blocks is to completely disconnect to the grid, right?

nope. you can have "critical" loads on a grid tied panel, and have a completly seperate breaker box with your solar and battery and the loads it can support, that has NO grid connection at all, it would be your own "microgrid". if you have enough solar panels, and battery storage, you can just elliminate the grid backup entirley

Edit: I suppose you are essentially disconnecting from the grid, by creating your own "microgrid", but it eliminates any utility interconnect rules.. of course you still need to do it to code to pass the electrical inspection.