Elon says AWD and Perf orders start at end of next week!

[McRat]

All that sound good.......But can it go Ludicrous? That's my only question. lol

The Model P3D is most likely is capable of outrunning the P100DL with two PM rear motors, making it the quickest EV under $1 million. The Model 3LR battery will handle it if it has the same C-discharge as the P100 battery does.

But there is a serious marketing problem coming.

The Model 3LR/PUP is theoretically quicker than the Model S75D uncorked. Nobody has prepped a 3LR correctly yet. Sticky tires, weight reduction, and it should rape a Model S base model costing >50% more. You can do this today. Extra points if you can get CCW or somebody to make you some 16" wheels for the car that clear the caliper. That would be like twisting the knife.

It comes down to trap speeds. This is a measure of a car's ability to accelerate. The uncorked MS75D is 101mph, the Model 3LR/PUP is 103mph.

So why is the MS75D a bit quicker to 60 and quicker in the 1/4? Traction. That's it. Nothing else.

So what to do? Do you actually nerf the holy crap out of the Model 3LRD? Abandon the Model S75D? Hmmm...

Are people going to buy S75D's that are slower than 3LRD?
Are people going to buy 3LRD's that are slower than 3LR's?

I imagine the Model P3D will have to be nerfed unless they replace both the front and rear motors with new, smaller sizes. The AWD will require new motor sizes AND be nerfed.

 

[ModelNforNerd]

The Model P3D is most likely is capable of outrunning the P100DL with two PM rear motors, making it the quickest EV under $1 million. The Model 3LR battery will handle it if it has the same C-discharge as the P100 battery does.

But there is a serious marketing problem coming.

The Model 3LR/PUP is theoretically quicker than the Model S75D uncorked. Nobody has prepped a 3LR correctly yet. Sticky tires, weight reduction, and it should rape a Model S base model costing >50% more. You can do this today. Extra points if you can get CCW or somebody to make you some 16" wheels for the car that clear the caliper. That would be like twisting the knife.

It comes down to trap speeds. This is a measure of a car's ability to accelerate. The uncorked MS75D is 101mph, the Model 3LR/PUP is 103mph.

So why is the MS75D a bit quicker to 60 and quicker in the 1/4? Traction. That's it. Nothing else.

So what to do? Do you actually nerf the holy crap out of the Model 3LRD? Abandon the Model S75D? Hmmm...

Are people going to buy S75D's that are slower than 3LRD?
Are people going to buy 3LRD's that are slower than 3LR's?

I imagine the Model P3D will have to be nerfed unless they replace both the front and rear motors with new, smaller sizes. The AWD will require new motor sizes AND be nerfed.

You give the 75D ventilated seats!!!!!!!!!!


lol.

 

[voip-ninja]

The Model P3D is most likely is capable of outrunning the P100DL with two PM rear motors, making it the quickest EV under $1 million. The Model 3LR battery will handle it if it has the same C-discharge as the P100 battery does.

But there is a serious marketing problem coming.

The Model 3LR/PUP is theoretically quicker than the Model S75D uncorked. Nobody has prepped a 3LR correctly yet. Sticky tires, weight reduction, and it should rape a Model S base model costing >50% more. You can do this today. Extra points if you can get CCW or somebody to make you some 16" wheels for the car that clear the caliper. That would be like twisting the knife.

It comes down to trap speeds. This is a measure of a car's ability to accelerate. The uncorked MS75D is 101mph, the Model 3LR/PUP is 103mph.

So why is the MS75D a bit quicker to 60 and quicker in the 1/4? Traction. That's it. Nothing else.

So what to do? Do you actually nerf the holy crap out of the Model 3LRD? Abandon the Model S75D? Hmmm...

Are people going to buy S75D's that are slower than 3LRD?
Are people going to buy 3LRD's that are slower than 3LR's?

I imagine the Model P3D will have to be nerfed unless they replace both the front and rear motors with new, smaller sizes. The AWD will require new motor sizes AND be nerfed.

I still don't understand this line of reasoning.

When did 0-60 performance become the defining differentiator for manufacturers pricing their offerings?

For nearly the entire 30 years I've been driving, larger performance cars have cost more than smaller performance cars from manufacturers focused on the performance sedan space.... and that price delta has been regardless of the 0-60 and 1/4 mile times of those offerings.

There are numerous ways that BMW, Mercedes and Audi differentiate a 3 series from a 5 series, a C class from an E class, an A4 from an A6.... and those ways don't rely on straight line acceleration numbers.

People should be going for the Tesla Model S over the Tesla Model 3 because it's a larger car, because the seats are nicer, because it has more 2nd row room, because it has a "higher end" instrument display, etc., etc., etc..

If Tesla can't give people legitimate reasons to crave an S over a 3 other than the S being faster then Tesla has serious problems.

 

[ModelNforNerd]

I still don't understand this line of reasoning.

When did 0-60 performance become the defining differentiator for manufacturers pricing their offerings?

For nearly the entire 30 years I've been driving, larger performance cars have cost more than smaller performance cars from manufacturers focused on the performance sedan space.... and that price delta has been regardless of the 0-60 and 1/4 mile times of those offerings.

There are numerous ways that BMW, Mercedes and Audi differentiate a 3 series from a 5 series, a C class from an E class, an A4 from an A6.... and those ways don't rely on straight line acceleration numbers.

People should be going for the Tesla Model S over the Tesla Model 3 because it's a larger car, because the seats are nicer, because it has more 2nd row room, because it has a "higher end" instrument display, etc., etc., etc..

If Tesla can't give people legitimate reasons to crave an S over a 3 other than the S being faster then Tesla has serious problems.

One needs look no further than Volkswagen.....


a GTi will smoke a Phaeton (#RIP) in any performance category you can come up with, because the Phaeton was (basically an A8/R8) living room on wheels.


Just because the GTi was a better performer in every measurable performance category, the Phaeton was more expensive.

I only wish Elon HADN'T said the Model S would always be quicker, though....

Elon Musk on Twitter

 

[voip-ninja]

One needs look no further than Volkswagen.....


a GTi will smoke a Phaeton (#RIP) in any performance category you can come up with, because the Phaeton was (basically an A8/R8) living room on wheels.


Just because the GTi was a better performer in every measurable performance category, the Phaeton was more expensive.

I only wish Elon HADN'T said the Model S would always be quicker, though....

Elon Musk on Twitter

Elon is being foolish.

There will always be a market for a roomier car with nicer appointments. Just ask BMW owners who chose a 530i over a similarly priced 340i. I have run into no shortage of people who chose a BMW 5 series or a Mercedes E class over the smaller offerings for no other reason than the perception that they are choosing the more prestigious car that has a bigger model number/letter.

Not to mention that Tesla plans on selling 500 Model 3s for every X or S they sell... It is far, far more important to dominate the packed "sports sedan" market that has many highly competent competitors than to sell more Model S than BMW sells 740i.

 

[ModelNforNerd]

Elon is being foolish.

There will always be a market for a roomier car with nicer appointments. Just ask BMW owners who chose a 530i over a similarly priced 340i. I have run into no shortage of people who chose a BMW 5 series or a Mercedes E class over the smaller offerings for no other reason than the perception that they are choosing the more prestigious car that has a bigger model number/letter.

Not to mention that Tesla plans on selling 500 Model 3s for every X or S they sell... It is far, far more important to dominate the packed "sports sedan" market that has many highly competent competitors than to sell more Model S than BMW sells 740i.

I really think he should make the S comparable, or better than other cars in its class, and not worry about Osborning the S with the 3.


Even if they buy a 3 and not an S, they're buying YOUR car, and not the competition's.


As a shareholder, I can't wait for the day Elon sees it like this.

 

[Model 3]

All that sound good.......But can it go Ludicrous? That's my only question. lol

Tesla Model 3 will have a ‘Ludicrous’ mode, says Elon Musk

 

[Garlan Garner]

The Model P3D is most likely is capable of outrunning the P100DL with two PM rear motors, making it the quickest EV under $1 million. The Model 3LR battery will handle it if it has the same C-discharge as the P100 battery does.

But there is a serious marketing problem coming.

The Model 3LR/PUP is theoretically quicker than the Model S75D uncorked. Nobody has prepped a 3LR correctly yet. Sticky tires, weight reduction, and it should rape a Model S base model costing >50% more. You can do this today. Extra points if you can get CCW or somebody to make you some 16" wheels for the car that clear the caliper. That would be like twisting the knife.

It comes down to trap speeds. This is a measure of a car's ability to accelerate. The uncorked MS75D is 101mph, the Model 3LR/PUP is 103mph.

So why is the MS75D a bit quicker to 60 and quicker in the 1/4? Traction. That's it. Nothing else.

So what to do? Do you actually nerf the holy crap out of the Model 3LRD? Abandon the Model S75D? Hmmm...

Are people going to buy S75D's that are slower than 3LRD?
Are people going to buy 3LRD's that are slower than 3LR's?

I imagine the Model P3D will have to be nerfed unless they replace both the front and rear motors with new, smaller sizes. The AWD will require new motor sizes AND be nerfed.

The fasted measured time of an off the showroom floor model 3 is 4.6 seconds. That's the time I consider as the real time. I don't want seats removed or anything.
I'm not interested in theoretical quickness. I cant feel theoreticalness.

Lastly....the model 3 is a game changer for tesla - as we all know The overlap between models is going to occur....whether in performance or features....there will be overlap. So what if the Model S and Model 3 share features and/or performance. It wouldn't bother me at all.
If the profit margins on both cars are the same....then who cares?

Are some people boing to buy this one over that one? Maybe, Maybe not.

As I've always stated. The competition for the Model 3 is NOT the Model S and vice-versa.

 

[Garlan Garner]

Tesla Model 3 will have a ‘Ludicrous’ mode, says Elon Musk

Bingo....I can do nothing about C rates or battery cells or anything. If Tesla gave me an option to pick which battery cell I wanted and all of that....then it would make a difference.

Will it go Ludicrous? Yes.....so for me - case closed. lol

 

[TEG]

I only wish Elon HADN'T said the Model S would always be quicker, though....
Elon Musk on Twitter

Actually he said FASTER not QUICKER.

Where some could interpret faster to mean higher top speed.
(quick=acceleration, fast=speed)

 

[Garlan Garner]

Actually he said FASTER not QUICKER.

Where some could interpret faster to mean higher top speed.
(quick=acceleration, fast=speed)

Ludicrous mode has nothing to do with speed. Both Elon and I know this ( for goodness sake, HE created it )



Elon was asked.....Will the model 3 have ludicrous mode.

Answer = Of course.

Done.

 

[dhanson865]

Abandon the Model S75D?

Yes, I'd build the model 3 to the design goals you use for Model S or better in regards to acceleration and handling and I'd discontinue the S75D as soon as demand allows.

That doesn't mean there would be only one pack size for Model S long term. At some point you bring out a new pack size higher capacity than 100 kWh and the 100 becomes the base trim for the Model S/X.

If that means a S75 that no one wants for 6 months or a 6 month period of nothing but 100 so be it. The Model 3 will carry the load of any hole in the S/X lineup.

 

[Daniel in SD]

The Model P3D is most likely is capable of outrunning the P100DL with two PM rear motors, making it the quickest EV under $1 million. The Model 3LR battery will handle it if it has the same C-discharge as the P100 battery does.

But there is a serious marketing problem coming.

The Model 3LR/PUP is theoretically quicker than the Model S75D uncorked. Nobody has prepped a 3LR correctly yet. Sticky tires, weight reduction, and it should rape a Model S base model costing >50% more. You can do this today. Extra points if you can get CCW or somebody to make you some 16" wheels for the car that clear the caliper. That would be like twisting the knife.

It comes down to trap speeds. This is a measure of a car's ability to accelerate. The uncorked MS75D is 101mph, the Model 3LR/PUP is 103mph.

So why is the MS75D a bit quicker to 60 and quicker in the 1/4? Traction. That's it. Nothing else.

So what to do? Do you actually nerf the holy crap out of the Model 3LRD? Abandon the Model S75D? Hmmm...

Are people going to buy S75D's that are slower than 3LRD?
Are people going to buy 3LRD's that are slower than 3LR's?

I imagine the Model P3D will have to be nerfed unless they replace both the front and rear motors with new, smaller sizes. The AWD will require new motor sizes AND be nerfed.

To accelerate as fast as a P100DL it would need a bigger motor in the back. At that acceleration the front wheels have about half the traction of the rears.
The BMW 7 series is more expensive and much slower than a BMW M3. Totally different cars. The Model S is a large luxury sedan. The Model 3 is a sports sedan.

 

[Garlan Garner]

Yes, I'd build the model 3 to the design goals you use for Model S or better in regards to acceleration and handling and I'd discontinue the S75D as soon as demand allows.

Why in the world are we still talking about the Model S vs the Model 3. They don't compete with one another.

They are 2 different cars in 2 different classes.

 

[Daniel in SD]

The Model X is both slower and more expensive than the Model S. I guess they should discontinue it

 

[voip-ninja]

Why in the world are we still talking about the Model S vs the Model 3. They don't compete with one another.

They are 2 different cars in 2 different classes.

They are competing with each other because Elon has, numerous times, directly compared them to each other.

Tesla are very clearly worried about Model 3 cannibalizing Model S sales.

 

[dhrivnak]

I still don't understand this line of reasoning.

When did 0-60 performance become the defining differentiator for manufacturers pricing their offerings?

For nearly the entire 30 years I've been driving, larger performance cars have cost more than smaller performance cars from manufacturers focused on the performance sedan space.... and that price delta has been regardless of the 0-60 and 1/4 mile times of those offerings.

There are numerous ways that BMW, Mercedes and Audi differentiate a 3 series from a 5 series, a C class from an E class, an A4 from an A6.... and those ways don't rely on straight line acceleration numbers.

People should be going for the Tesla Model S over the Tesla Model 3 because it's a larger car, because the seats are nicer, because it has more 2nd row room, because it has a "higher end" instrument display, etc., etc., etc..

If Tesla can't give people legitimate reasons to crave an S over a 3 other than the S being faster then Tesla has serious problems.

Well said. The Model S is a DIFFERENT car and few buy the 75D because of the 0-60.

 

[WierdMobile]

I'm not sure he's worried about cannibalizing as much as Osborne-ing. Selling 3s instead of Ss is okay. Having people not buy a Tesla at all because they think the 3 is better than the S, but can't get a 3 yet, is a problem.

 

[ModelNforNerd]

They are competing with each other because Elon has, numerous times, directly compared them to each other.

Tesla are very clearly worried about Model 3 cannibalizing Model S sales.

Correct, we're not lumping them together for our own good. In almost every other OEM lineup, you look at the 2 different cars, you understand they're in different segments, and you go back to comparing them within their segment, not the automaker's lineup. I REALLY wish Elon would see it this way, and stop this line of thinking.

If he truly unleashed the Model 3 versus OTHER CARS IN ITS CLASS.....once the numbers rolled in on 3PLRD sales, he'd stop worrying about cannibalizing the S.

 

[Garlan Garner]

They are competing with each other because Elon has, numerous times, directly compared them to each other.

Tesla are very clearly worried about Model 3 cannibalizing Model S sales.

I haven't heard that he's worried about cannibalizing Model S sales. The only think I heard he was worried about was someone making a Model 3 reservation and getting in a 1 year line when they could get in a tremendously shorter Model S line. That's about making money NOW instead of later.

That's why he anit-sold the Model 3.




The profit margins are the same.

If I can sell something for a dollar and make $0.20 then what difference will it make if I sell something else and make $0.20 on it as well.