Europe: Future Charging for Model S 1-phase or 3-phase? (Part 2)

[Bipo]

Volkwagen confirms they will use CCS ("The Combo"): Volkswagen Group of America and Eaton Unveil New Combined Charging System Quick Charger - Yahoo! Finance

Nothing new, tough.


IMHO Tesla should sell the EU Model S with that inlet... It will become the standard so there will be a lot of ultra-QC (near 90 kW) in Europe. Since EU normative do not allow any kind of adaptor, a Model S owner only would do UQC in the Supercharger network, what does not make any sense at all...

 

[Jason S]

From the article: "With the ability to handle up to 86 kW, CCS is the most powerful charging system available."

The Tesla Superchargers are 90kW. ... 86 < 90 ... CCS is therefore the SECOND most powerful charging system available.

 

[Bipo]

Well... That's true indeed, but CCS is able to deal with 500 V x 200 A = 100 kW (theorically).

As we have already comment, the 250 A max. of the SC vs. 200 A max. of CCS means that SC can send more power to the same battery, because at DC charging, voltage is limited by the battery.

Anyway, the 250 A of the Tesla' SC are not sustainable for a long time, because as battery' SOC grows up, the max. amps that can accept drops:

Furthermore, a proper utilisation of the wires in the CCS would make it able to handle 70 more amps (using the J-1772 AC wires). That means up to 270 A, a bit more than Tesla's plug.

For the European CCS, wich have two more wires, that means up to 340 A, withoud adding wires or resize the plug.

 

[Norbert]

Well... That's true indeed, but CCS is able to deal with 500 V x 200 A = 100 kW (theorically).

As far as the theoretical maximum is concerned, the SuperCharger will go up to 120 kW.

As we have already comment, the 250 A max. of the SC vs. 200 A max. of CCS means that SC can send more power to the same battery, because at DC charging, voltage is limited by the battery.

Anyway, the 250 A of the Tesla' SC are not sustainable for a long time, because as battery' SOC grows up, the max. amps that can accept drops:

That's orthogonal to (independent of) the connector being used (it is the same with CCS).

 

[Bipo]

^^^

Yes, SC will go up to 120 kW in a near future (Modle X maybe), but as I said, as SOC grows up, that power drops, so using a 120 kW, 90 kW or 60 kW charger won't be so different if the battery is not under 20% or so at the beggining...

 

[jcstp]

ccs can do 100kw theoretacly
But to do so the battery of the car who accepts it must be big enough !
Till now EV's for VW only exist theoretacly!

I only will believe them when you see them!

In theory many things can happen! but between theory and fact there is often a big difference!

 

[flux]

IMHO Tesla should sell the EU Model S with that inlet... It will become the standard so there will be a lot of ultra-QC (near 90 kW) in Europe. Since EU normative do not allow any kind of adaptor, a Model S owner only would do UQC in the Supercharger network, what does not make any sense at all...

I agree, this inlet can do max 170kw (200A/850V). If Tesla increase the voltage of its Eu model S battery to 450V, it would handle 90kw CCS charging. Tesla may also enhance the inlet to manage 250A DC for their SC chargers.

 

[eledille]

I agree, this inlet can do max 170kw (200A/850V). If Tesla increase the voltage of its Eu model S battery to 450V, it would handle 90kw CCS charging. Tesla may also enhance the inlet to manage 250A DC for their SC chargers.

Forget about changing the battery voltage. That would be an extremely extensive change, it's not going to happen. Increasing the voltage also means fewer cells in parallel, and therefore lower max charging current.

 

[jcstp]

http://ec.europa.eu/avservices/player/streaming.cfm?type=ebsvod&sid=220757

Europe decided Type 2 plug MUST be the standard!

 

[widodh]

http://ec.europa.eu/avservices/player/streaming.cfm?type=ebsvod&sid=220757

Europe decided Type 2 plug MUST be the standard!

And that's why I like the European Union!

We'll know tomorrow what Tesla did when the GetAmped Europe kicks off!

 

[suxxer]

We'll know tomorrow what Tesla did when the GetAmped Europe kicks off!

No, we won't. S. Davies from TM UK clearly wrote that the Get Amped Cars used in Europe will be US Production cars with TEMPORARY PLATES, so they only have basic modifications (lights, turn signals) to comply with EU laws so they can get temporary plates. He also wrote that these cars WON'T have any modified charging ports as the factory in the netherlands (where the Model S will be modifgied to suit EU laws) is not ready until spring.

The original text was:

There are no full modifications with the exception of EU number plates and lights, as we cannot drive in Europe without these. All our cars are type approved individually for temporary European use. The facility in the Netherlands is not yet open, it opens in Spring, so we are not able to do any work there as yet.

These cars will most likely have the US port: we do not have any approved EU spec ports available, and even if we did it would be difficult to add them to a US spec car. For charging, we use a specialist Tesla adaptor.

Tesla is so slow in their communication and even the representatives at the stores just tell you the things you want to hear. But non of them really know anything whats going on. I would call that a non-existent communication strategy! We are far away from hearing the thruth from a Tesla rep.

 

[widodh]

No, we won't. S. Davies from TM UK clearly wrote that the Get Amped Cars used in Europe will be US Production cars with TEMPORARY PLATES, so they only have basic modifications (lights, turn signals) to comply with EU laws so they can get temporary plates. He also wrote that these cars WON'T have any modified charging ports as the factory in the netherlands (where the Model S will be modifgied to suit EU laws) is not ready until spring.

The original text was:


Tesla is so slow in their communication and even the representatives at the stores just tell you the things you want to hear. But non of them really know anything whats going on. I would call that a non-existent communication strategy! We are far away from hearing the thruth from a Tesla rep.

Weird. My contact is not somebody in a store, he's working at Tesla UK as well.

Well, we'll just have to wait longer

 

[Kevin Sharpe]

any 3 Phase news?

 

[jcstp]

Get Amped - Munich (DE) - 25-27 Jan 2013

there will be two 3p charging options : Standard 3p@16A, optinal 3p@32A ...

 

[Bipo]

What a pity... It should be 3x32 A standard and 3x63 A optional. Furthermore, 3x63 A should be standard. If a Renault Zoé does it, Model S must!

 

[jkirkebo]

What a pity... It should be 3x32 A standard and 3x63 A optional. Furthermore, 3x63 A should be standard. If a Renault Zoé does it, Model S must!

We already more or less knew this, as the car has been speced with 10kW charger as standard and 20kW optional. 3x16A is 11kW and 3x32A is 22kW so it fits nicely. More interesting is; do the car support 1x32A with just a single charger or do we need the extra charger to go above 16A for single phase too ?

The Zoe reductive charging system is not compatible with the Tesla PEM, it would mean a major redesign and probably a year delay minimum + massive price increase to pay for the new PEM engineering and increased manufacturing costs of having less common components.

 

[dpeilow]

We already more or less knew this, as the car has been speced with 10kW charger as standard and 20kW optional. 3x16A is 11kW and 3x32A is 22kW so it fits nicely. More interesting is; do the car support 1x32A with just a single charger or do we need the extra charger to go above 16A for single phase too ?

exactly

 

[eledille]

We already more or less knew this, as the car has been speced with 10kW charger as standard and 20kW optional.

A 3P charger is supposed to occupy approximately half the volume of a single phase charger of the same power. The same goes for cost and weight. I assume the power of the US chargers was set due to either space or cost constraints, so I don't see why the US specs have any relevance whatsoever to the Euro specs.

I have to say I was hoping for more than 3x32 for the optional version.

But still, 22 kW 3P is good enough for me.

3x16A is 11kW and 3x32A is 22kW so it fits nicely. More interesting is; do the car support 1x32A with just a single charger or do we need the extra charger to go above 16A for single phase too ?

This is a very interesting question. Another is what do they do about DC? If there is a Combo plug, that would be great, that would make the loss of 43 kW 3P much less problematic.

 

[Johan]

A 3P charger is supposed to occupy approximately half the volume of a single phase charger of the same power. The same goes for cost and weight. I assume the power of the US chargers was set due to either space or cost constraints, so I don't see why the US specs have any relevance whatsoever to the Euro specs.

I have to say I was hoping for more than 3x32 for the optional version.

I agree that the US 1-phase setup doesn't necessarily have to mean the same 10 and 20 kW setup for EU cars, the problem is that Tesla has these specs publicized all-over: press releases, specs page, pricing page, configurator, there may even be some people(?) in the EU that have finalized with Twin Chargers (Signatures naturally, who will be fully speced anyway so they could still change this). My point (and maybe also jkirkebo's) is that if Tesla was going to go with anything else than 10kW and 20kW respectively they really have to hurry up and change their official information regarding EU cars.

 

[dtich]

here's a brochure i found on the german manu site mennekes, who drafted the adopted plug/connector standard 'type 2':

http://www.mennekes.de/uploads/media/Infrastructure_GB_110511_low_873000DS.pdf

lots of good info in there. fwiw.

reading this i now understand how tesla designed their cable, and can guess at how the charging adapters work a little better. the system uses the pilot pin and the ground to establish a set level of resistance which encodes the type of voltage/amperage a connection can carry. there must be specific resistors in the adapters which identify them. seems tesla probably, and wisely, followed the basic thinking in europe (germany) about how to manage these technologies. so the u.s. system for tesla is very similar fundamentally, and if they adopt the type 2 plug for the eu much of their system should be totally compatible. seems to me. although they could opt for proprietary connectors as they've done here in the u.s., but that's probably only because there was nothing satisfactory here. we'll see....