Europe: Future Charging for Model S 1-phase or 3-phase? (Part 2)

[jcstp]

ooooooo you people panic before you know anything!
Anyhow if Tesla wants to sell cars with supercharging capacity, it will find a way to integrate a plug capable of it!
Worrying about combo, chademo or others is not necessary!
Anyhow I heard several times people complaint about DC fastchargers out of commission! + membershipschemes costing a fortune compared to the service + membershipschemes not being crossborder
In short these DC fastchargersnetworks are mostly intended for short-range cars that rarely cross the border. Once you cross the border of your country your adventure starts in earnest because you can only acces chargers with difficulty!

In my mind most important is
- is it able to charge 3-phase AC (yes)
- will you be able to connect it to a mennekes plug at a charging station (yes, with a cable just as all curent EV's)

If Tesla wants it's TESLAS to be the longdistance EV's it will provide the network! It makes more sense to them then any others!

 

[agentsmith1612]

You are all right.

But one correction: Combo2 ist not an common plug in Europe. I have never seen one of this in Germany.

Normaly I see a Typ2 plug. But the Typ 2 plug can have variable power, seen in this thread some sites before (1-3 phase from 240-500 V and so on, including fast DC Charge).

For DC fast charging we have not a common standard. There are some Chademo outside, but not all EVs support them, I only know that the Leaf supports it. And Chademo take only 62,5 kw.

I would prefere that Tesla builds up a Supercharger network in Europe too.

But we will see what Tesla will do, I hope the best solution ever, because the car should be the best car in Europe, as well as in US.

 

[europe]

You are all right.

But one correction: Combo2 ist not an common plug in Europe. I have never seen one of this in Germany.

Normaly I see a Typ2 plug. But the Typ 2 plug can have variable power, seen in this thread some sites before (1-3 phase from 240-500 V and so on, including fast DC Charge).

For DC fast charging we have not a common standard. There are some Chademo outside, but not all EVs support them, I only know that the Leaf supports it. And Chademo take only 62,5 kw.

I would prefere that Tesla builds up a Supercharger network in Europe too.

But we will see what Tesla will do, I hope the best solution ever, because the car should be the best car in Europe, as well as in US.

I add here a Norwegan Tesla paper about charging in Europe maybe that helps
Hvordan kan Tesla Model S lades?

 

[Bipo]

You are all right.

But one correction: Combo2 ist not an common plug in Europe. I have never seen one of this in Germany.

I saw one in Stuttgart twelve months ago. And it will become more and more usual, as Type2 has been choosen as the Europe standard.

The SAE CCS has already become a standard in USA, and as Combo2 is essentially the same plug in terms of communication protocols and size of the two big pins, is logical to think it will become the single standard at the two sides of the Atlantic. Japan will go on with its CHAdeMO, but here I think it's assumed to dissapear in the next few years.

 

[agentsmith1612]

Thanks "europe" for this document.
In the document there is in the table the "3rd Party Wall connector" with Typ 2, 3 phases and 22 kw.
The Tesla Wall connector is not useable for Europe because nobody here gets one phase with 60 A. I mean we have 3 phases with 63 A each but the provider will kill you if he see that you take 60 A out of 1 phase and the other two are only slightly loaded.

But the paper said that the Model S will be able to handle 3 phase. Only how the connector will look like is the question.
There are also the Supercharging option, this can mean that the EU model will get both connectors, the Telsa one and a new. Or Tesla will build up a supercharger with other plugs.


@Bipo: Combo 2 will be a standard? For what we have the Typ2 ?
Where are the advantages from Typ 2 to Combo 2 ? I don't see anyone.
The Typ 2 can also handle a high amount of DC Charge.
Now I understand that you can plug a Typ2 into a Combo 2 connector (PHOENIX CONTACT | AC and DC plug-in charging systems - PLUSCON power)

 

[Kevin Sharpe]

The Tesla Wall connector is not useable for Europe because nobody here gets one phase with 60 A. I mean we have 3 phases with 63 A each but the provider will kill you if he see that you take 60 A out of 1 phase and the other two are only slightly loaded.

That's been said before but we still have some Tesla HPC's in the wild at 60A and above :smile:

But the paper said that the Model S will be able to handle 3 phase. Only how the connector will look like is the question.

It will be a Type 2 connector because that supports 1 phase and 3 phase!

 

[Bipo]

@Bipo: Combo 2 will be a standard? For what we have the Typ2 ?
Where are the advantages from Typ 2 to Combo 2 ? I don't see anyone.
The Typ 2 can also handle a high amount of DC Charge.
Now I understand that you can plug a Typ2 into a Combo 2 connector (PHOENIX CONTACT | AC and DC plug-in charging systems - PLUSCON power)

Type 2 and Combo2 are absolutely complementary. Combo2 is just an extension of the Type 2 plug, it's a Type 2 plug with two additional pins in the bottom, but of course you can plug a Type 2 cable into a Combo2 socket.

The key factor is that Type 2 "only" allows 140 A on DC, where Combo2 supports up to 200A (maybe 225 or even 250, is TBC). That will allow very high power charging.

Tesla Supercharges manage up to 240 A, so if Combo2 can carry up to 225 A, that means it can charge a Model S at 80 kW rate, very close to Tesla native system. Furthermore, if you read again the document linked by the TMC user "europe", you can see in the bottom line this:

That mention to 80 kW instead of the American SC's 90 kW it's, more or less, an explicit confirmation of the use of a Combo2 plug in the European Model S

 

[jcstp]

News vanuit Geneva:

TIDBITS FROM GENEVA
Following the twitter feed of "Grønn bil Norge" (Green car norway) @gronnbilnorge which are in Geneva listening to Musk:
https://twitter.com/gronnbilnorge/status/308931728221814784
Tesla: Contact will be Mode 3 Type 2, with strengthened pins to support Tesla's supercharger #geneva http://twitpic.com/c8ukys
https://twitter.com/gronnbilnorge/status/308932165545111552
Production start for Tesla's European model in June. First deliveries in July. All who have ordered until now gets a car this year. #geneva
https://twitter.com/gronnbilnorge/status/308933612047331328
"There will be significant supercharger deployment in Europe this year. More in Oslo tomorrow. " Tesla in #geneva

interesting

 

[widodh]

So a type 2 combo plug with modified pins or a plain type 2?


Sent from my phone, so my apologies for typos.

 

[jkirkebo]

The key factor is that Type 2 "only" allows 140 A on DC, where Combo2 supports up to 200A (maybe 225 or even 250, is TBC). That will allow very high power charging.

Tesla Supercharges manage up to 240 A, so if Combo2 can carry up to 225 A, that means it can charge a Model S at 80 kW rate, very close to Tesla native system. Furthermore, if you read again the document linked by the TMC user "europe", you can see in the bottom line this:

That mention to 80 kW instead of the American SC's 90 kW it's, more or less, an explicit confirmation of the use of a Combo2 plug in the European Model S

And Elon just said 120kW at Geneva. Maybe they will parallell the internal pins and the extra two DC pins ? DC-mid+high should carry at least 340A (200A+140A). 355V*340A=120.7kW. Hmm....

 

[jcstp]

 

[widodh]

And Elon just said 120kW at Geneva. Maybe they will parallell the internal pins and the extra two DC pins ? DC-mid+high should carry at least 340A (200A+140A). 355V*340A=120.7kW. Hmm....

Did you hear anything about the combo plug?

What I hear from it is that they made their own Type 2 compatible connector with heavier pins.

Parallel L1 with L2 and N with L3 and you can also carry that current.

 

[Bipo]

I've been told today in Geneva about possible support of EU model for AC 63A (it's not a confirmation).

Also about no combo2 but tuned type 2 (I got contradictory information again).

Confirmation of EU specs soon, maybe a few weeks or even less.

Sorry but I got different answers for the same questions, so no confirmation at all... :/

 

[jackie]

Sorry but I got different answers for the same questions, so no confirmation at all... :/

I had to laugh at your feedback from Geneva. It sounds like what we hear time and time again. I know one thing for sure. When I get my car then I will know what it will support or at least I think I will :wink:

 

[doug]

I've been told today in Geneva about possible support of EU model for AC 63A (it's not a confirmation).

From Elon's talk in Norway, he said 10 and 20kW options. So I'd assume 32A max (16A with only the 10kW charger). Makes you wonder what the max charge rate is single phase.

 

[widodh]

I still guess 16A single phase per charger. Safe bet I think.


Sent from my phone, so my apologies for typos.

 

[Bipo]

As the man who told me knew quite well what he was talking about, and he talked about 43 kW and 63 A before I mentioned those specific cyphers, I'd bet for:

- Reinforced Type 2 to support SC, but it's not a Combo2.
- 63 A compatibility with dual chargers. 43 kW at 400 V 3-ph.
- First EU deliveries early summer. Final EU specs early spring.

That's what I guess more probable, but of couse no confirmation at all. We must wait a few weeks only.

 

[dpeilow]

If he offered that up without prompting then that is hopeful. The specs Bipo says in addition to CHAdeMO support are as good as is possible really.

 

[Johan]

If twin charger gets us 43kW I'll buy it. If only 20kW I won't (and save the money for ChAdeMO adapter instead). 20kW is really IMO not even semi-quick charging (which AC 43kW or DC at 47kW would be IMO).

 

[Bipo]

If he offered that up without prompting then that is hopeful. The specs Bipo says in addition to CHAdeMO support are as good as is possible really.

That's the point But CHAdeMO adapter is confirmed for Norway, not for EU. Remember Norway is not a member of the European Union, so maybe legal issues about adaptors are not a problem. Just saying...

If twin charger gets us 43kW I'll buy it. If only 20kW I won't (and save the money for ChAdeMO adapter instead). 20kW is really IMO not even semi-quick charging (which AC 43kW or DC at 47kW would be IMO).

I agree, but that's the same discussion as the battery size, the day you need it and you don't have it...

Anyway, I think that in a few year CHAdeMO will be erased from Europe, replaced by Combo2 as the standard. Is the logic way... Japanese are trying something impossible because ACEA chose Combo2 a long time ago.