Europeanizing needed for the Model S

[RobStark]

As discussed earlier in this thread, customers would consider a Tesla in comparison to a reasonably well equipped large Diesel or large petrol engine 5 series, A6 or E class. The price point of those cars is quite different, however.

A Model S is much longer than a 5 Series,A6, or E Class and wider than a 7 Series, A8 or S Class.

It is a bit longer than a 6 Series Gran Coupe, A7 or CLS. These are most direct competitors, the E Segment.

But Model S offers more shoulder and hip room than any of those due to bigger width.

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100k€ Tesla S has approximately 20 k€ battery, which 100k€ ICE car does not have. I think because of this 20k additional cost Tesla has to cut costs somewhere. It is of course up to potential buyer, whether this is a problem or not.
At the moment Tesla is a small segment niche car and buyers don’t care so much, if the leather or floor carpet is not so luxurious as in other 100k€ cars. The problem arises when Tesla tries to sell cars to mass market.

Tesla's powertrain is not much more expensive the a competitors car if at all.

V8 engines, V12 engines , twin turbos, 7-8-9 speed transmissions are expensive.

That cost difference is economies of scale.

MB and BMW sell 1.8M vehicles worldwide. Tesla is on track for 35k this year.

They don't have the pricing power when approaching suppliers like seat manufactures and leather makers.

That is why it is critical to scale up as quickly as possible before a true road worthy competitor comes along.

 

[matbl]

A Model S is much longer than a 5 Series,A6, or E Class and wider than a 7 Series, A8 or S Class.

It is a bit longer than a 6 Series Gran Coupe, A7 or CLS. These are most direct competitors, the E Segment.

But Model S offers more shoulder and hip room than any of those due to bigger width.

I think you're missing the point. In europe, Tesla MS is compared to BMW 5, Audi A6 and Mercedes E. Choice is to get a Tesla or one of those. And if one of the German brands, we're not talking a BMW M5 or even 550, we're talking 520-530 diesels tops. Same for Audi and Mercedes. For someone looking at a BMW 7 or Audi A8 or Mercedes S I doubt that the Tesla is even considered. It lacks too much in interior quality and features to even be considered.
I chose to move to a Tesla from a BMW 520d because of certain tax rules in relation to company owned cars in Sweden. If it weren't for thos rules I would never have been able to afford it since the Tesla base price is twice of my BMW 520d.

Tesla's powertrain is not much more expensive the a competitors car if at all.

V8 engines, V12 engines , twin turbos, 7-8-9 speed transmissions are expensive.

That cost difference is economies of scale.

I think 4- or 6-cylinder diesels is what you should compare with for european markets...

 

[AustinPowers]

I think you're missing the point. In europe, Tesla MS is compared to BMW 5, Audi A6 and Mercedes E. Choice is to get a Tesla or one of those. And if one of the German brands, we're not talking a BMW M5 or even 550, we're talking 520-530 diesels tops. Same for Audi and Mercedes. For someone looking at a BMW 7 or Audi A8 or Mercedes S I doubt that the Tesla is even considered. It lacks too much in interior quality and features to even be considered.
I chose to move to a Tesla from a BMW 520d because of certain tax rules in relation to company owned cars in Sweden. If it weren't for thos rules I would never have been able to afford it since the Tesla base price is twice of my BMW 520d.


I think 4- or 6-cylinder diesels is what you should compare with for european markets...

+1 Absolutely.

Many American members here think very differently to us Europeans. Exterior size doesn't matter so much here - on the contrary, it can even be a hindrance. We rather value economy of space, meaning to get as much interior room and storage out of as little exterior size as possible (and Model S doesn't really feel spacious inside, at least in the backseats). Which is why station wagons und minivans are so popular here, whereas they are more or less hated in the US.
Same with acceleration. As we haven't got the typical "lights-to-lights race" situtation over here, there is no need to blast off from a standstill, something Model S truly excels at, especially the P and P+ versions. We rather value acceleration over a wide band of speeds in combination with a high (and sustainable) top speed. At the same time we want good fuel economy, which is why powerful yet highly efficient diesels are so popular here - again in complete contrast to the US.

I think Model S has the potential to become a hit over here as well, and Gen III even more so, as long as Tesla understands the differences in the European market as opposed to the American market and acts accordingly. It is a learning curve I am sure they will get right in the end. After all, the first steps they took have been quite impressive already.

 

[dirkhh]

Many American members here think very differently to us Europeans. Exterior size doesn't matter so much here - on the contrary, it can even be a hindrance. We rather value economy of space, meaning to get as much interior room and storage out of as little exterior size as possible (and Model S doesn't really feel spacious inside, at least in the backseats). Which is why station wagons und minivans are so popular here, whereas they are more or less hated in the US.
Same with acceleration. As we haven't got the typical "lights-to-lights race" situtation over here, there is no need to blast off from a standstill, something Model S truly excels at, especially the P and P+ versions. We rather value acceleration over a wide band of speeds in combination with a high (and sustainable) top speed. At the same time we want good fuel economy, which is why powerful yet highly efficient diesels are so popular here - again in complete contrast to the US.

Couldn't agree more. I've been trying to explain to people here for quite a while that most Germans would compare to a 535d wagon. I usually get laughed at and lectured that I'm wrong. Everyone would love to compare the Model S to the A7 or the Mercedes CLS and then claim that the Model S does very well. But that is not the reality in the buyers' eye - at least to the German buyer.

 

[William13]

I think that this thread and participants need to distinguish the distinct "Europeanization" needed for Germany versus other countries.

I hear for Germany:
1) need for speed at least 145 or 150 mph
2) associated need for 150 kWh battery
3) supercharger deployment
4) advanced cruise control
5) available higher quality seat and leather to compete with similarly priced cars to Model S

For the rest of Europe:
1) superchargers due to plethora of local electrical standards
2) ACC
3) adapters for electrical plugs

The long and short is that few Germans will buy until the Tesla is demonstrably superior. Germany has chosen to close its CO2 free nuclear plants and rely on coal, French nuclear power, and a minor portion of subsidized solar. Thus rationality is no better in Germany than elsewhere. Tesla will rise to this challenge though I expect 2019 or 2020 before big German sales.

The rest of Europe is not homogeneous and will likely be Tesla's third largest market in 2 years after China takes off.

 

[RobStark]

I think you're missing the point. In europe, Tesla MS is compared to BMW 5, Audi A6 and Mercedes E. Choice is to get a Tesla or one of those. And if one of the German brands, we're not talking a BMW M5 or even 550, we're talking 520-530 diesels tops. Same for Audi and Mercedes. For someone looking at a BMW 7 or Audi A8 or Mercedes S I doubt that the Tesla is even considered. It lacks too much in interior quality and features to even be considered.
I chose to move to a Tesla from a BMW 520d because of certain tax rules in relation to company owned cars in Sweden. If it weren't for thos rules I would never have been able to afford it since the Tesla base price is twice of my BMW 520d.


I think 4- or 6-cylinder diesels is what you should compare with for european markets...

I think you are missing the point. Model S is a much bigger car than those mid sizers.

Model S 60 is much quicker than those midsizers with a 4 banger and the 85 kWh is much quicker than the 6 banger.

Any European comparing Models S to much smaller slower cars is making the wrong comparison.

Special rules favoring gassers is a different story.

In Norway an M5 is much more expensive than a Model S 85

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+1 Absolutely.

Many American members here think very differently to us Europeans. Exterior size doesn't matter so much here - on the contrary, it can even be a hindrance. We rather value economy of space, meaning to get as much interior room and storage out of as little exterior size as possible (and Model S doesn't really feel spacious inside, at least in the backseats). Which is why station wagons und minivans are so popular here, whereas they are more or less hated in the US.

Model S is not aimed at most Europeans.

A few greens that happen to be quite wealthy, techies, and E and F segment buyers.

That are quite a few of the latter in Europe.

Station wagons are hated here. The minivan less so but invented here. Despite that Chrysler,Honda and Toyota sell almost a million of them. Plus, undercover minivans, the Crossover Utility Vehicle, sell quite well.

Many Europeans think of "American" cars as inferior. That will not change until Tesla proves otherwise after many years on the road.

Most post WWII Americans thought the same of both European and Japanese cars. Until proven otherwise.

Fair enough.

 

[dsm363]

Couldn't agree more. I've been trying to explain to people here for quite a while that most Germans would compare to a 535d wagon. I usually get laughed at and lectured that I'm wrong. Everyone would love to compare the Model S to the A7 or the Mercedes CLS and then claim that the Model S does very well. But that is not the reality in the buyers' eye - at least to the German buyer.

I don't doubt you are right as I saw plenty of station wagons in Germany when I was there. How well do the A7 or CLS sell in Germany then? If few people buy those cars then I understand but if they sell well I would think the Model S at least has a potential market.

 

[matbl]

I think you are missing the point. Model S is a much bigger car than those mid sizers.

?
Yes it's 7 cm longer bumper to bumper. But passenger compartment width is smaller than BMW 5-series. I guess Mercedes E is even bigger.
Storage wise it's bigger thanks to the frunk unless you compare with Mercedes E as a station wagon which is huge.

Model S 60 is much quicker than those midsizers with a 4 banger and the 85 kWh is much quicker than the 6 banger.

Quicker acceleration? We don't care that much... Top speed? Ehm no.
If there were a S85- with 85KWh battery, less hp, cheaper price I would have gone for that.

In Norway an M5 is much more expensive than a Model S 85

Norway and other countries with a special tax on new vehicles are a little bit special. In countries without that like Germany it's a different story.
Anyway, the comparison with the M5 is irrelevant as I've already tried to point out.

A few greens that happen to be quite wealthy, techies, and E and F segment buyers.

That are quite a few of the latter in Europe.

Yes. But those buyers want luxury. The Model S does not provide that.

 

[AustinPowers]

I don't doubt you are right as I saw plenty of station wagons in Germany when I was there. How well do the A7 or CLS sell in Germany then? If few people buy those cars then I understand but if they sell well I would think the Model S at least has a potential market.

They do sell, but not in large numbers. In April, 262 Audi A7/S7/RS7 were newly registered versus 354 CLS. For comparison, there were 3,606 new registrations of A6/S6/RS6, 3,642 5-series and 3,472 E-class models. The ratio of sedans to station wagons is roughly 50:50, with some models (especially the aformentioned highpower diesels) even 35:65 in favor of station wagons.

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?
Yes it's 7 cm longer bumper to bumper. But passenger compartment width is smaller than BMW 5-series. I guess Mercedes E is even bigger.
Storage wise it's bigger thanks to the frunk unless you compare with Mercedes E as a station wagon which is huge.

Quicker acceleration? We don't care that much... Top speed? Ehm no.
If there were a S85- with 85KWh battery, less hp, cheaper price I would have gone for that.

Norway and other countries with a special tax on new vehicles are a little bit special. In countries without that like Germany it's a different story.
Anyway, the comparison with the M5 is irrelevant as I've already tried to point out.

Yes. But those buyers want luxury. The Model S does not provide that.

+1 That sums it up nicely. And it goes to show that it is not just a German mindset. I would argue that apart from the top speed argument, all the points that Germans might find lacking in Model S, Britons, Swedes etc. would agree on too. I don't know about the French though ;-)

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I think you are missing the point. Model S is a much bigger car than those mid sizers.
...
Any European comparing Models S to much smaller slower cars is making the wrong comparison.

As matbl correctly said, Model S of course is larger on the outside, but the usable interior space is not larger than an A6 or E-class, especially the (over here) very popular station wagons. Try transporting a washing machine (or any other cargo of comparable size) in a Model S. Not really possible (not even with the rear seats folded down, thanks to the sloping roofline). E-class T-model, A6 Avant, even 5-series touring, no problem at all. I just tried to imagine a typical trip to the DIY center in our VW Touran or an A6 (etc.) station wagon vs. the same trip in a Model S. Sure, I would never get to the store as fast (and stylish) in our car as in Model S, but as soon as I wanted to load my stuff into the Model S, I would have to admit defeat...

And while I loved my test drive of the P85, when I tried to sit in the back it didn't feel comfortable at all. I banged my head on the rear end of the pano roof, the seats were more uncomfortable than in a 20K Skoda and as soon as you close the door you feel quite cramped there. Of course you can argue "how often do you get to sit in the back?", and you would be right. But a car should be spacious and comfortable to all passengers, not just those in the front.

So an A6, E-class, 5-series much smaller? Not really. At least not inside, which is where it matters.
And slower? Only off the line (which people over here don't care so much about in general), not over the distance.
For comparison, take the A6 Avant 2.0 TDI ultra (190 hp, base price 44.5K Euro): it has 8.5 seconds 0 to 62 mph, 140 mph topspeed, a medium fuel efficiency of around 50 miles to the gallon, which means a realistic medium range of between 800 and 900 miles per tank!

Just try to understand, we don't dislike what Model S has to offer. It's just that some things that make cars of such size/price sell well over here are missing in Model S and hindering it from becoming a hit at the moment. Especially the extremely high performance of the Model S is something I never quite understood, because sportscar performance is not the main thing that people looking for an EV are interested in. Sure it's a nice bonus, but think how Model S would sell if it "only" did 0 - 60 in 8 or 9 seconds (which is still plenty fast), but had a usable range of 350 or 400 miles. I would dare say that at the same price point it would outsell CLS's and A7's already.

 

[dsm363]

If the Model S didn't have such amazing performance, I think it would not be as big a success. Sure, no one needs 4-6 second 0-60 times but it's just one of the factors that proves to the general public that EVs are not glorified golf carts. The Model S won't be able to compete on one charge/fueling range for a very long time (if it ever needs to) with a 800 mile range diesel ICE so off the line performance is one area it can shine. The rest (300+ mile range) and luxury will come with time so the performance helps at least in the US. I also doubt the Model S takes much of a weight or range penalty by having such performance as well so why not?

 

[William13]

The Model S is constrained by available resources. The battery not the power of the motor/inverter is the cost and limit. Thus Tesla MUST distinquish itself by performance rather than battery capacity or price at present as those who want a different car. The car can be improved re its Luxury but other areas are constrained.

 

[3mp_kwh]

The car can be improved re its Luxury but other areas are constrained.

It wouldn't be "Europeanizing", to add the dash controls back and let drivers who go 150kph, do it without having their eyes leave the road so much. It wouldn't be "Europeanizing" to become more space efficient in the interior, as the fourth production year approaches. I am afraid Tesla has distinguished itself, at its peril, in some places. It stinks when a short list of silly things like rear interior headroom, and the above, can be deal-breakers.

Lastly, Tesla is already European in performance. Europeans do like to leave the line. In the front, where they can't put anything, they give up balanced handling with the vibrating 3.0ltr boat anchors Audi puts way up high, in its A6/A7s. That car can't handle without putting a lump in your throat. And when you peal back most lux Euro suspensions, you find Sachs, not Tesla's Bilsteins. So, apart from top speed, Tesla is in many ways a better driver's sedan.

 

[AustinPowers]

It stinks when a short list of silly things like rear interior headroom, and the above, can be deal-breakers.

So you find a comfortably spacious interior silly? In a car of that exterior size? Interesting position. And deal-breaker? Not really, but just another point that keeps holding the car back in comparison to its competition.

And vibrating 3.0ltr boat anchors? Perhaps ten or fifteen years ago. Drive a current mid-size premium sedan from Audi/Merc/BMW/Jag. Those are almost as quiet and vibrationless as Model S. Even from the outside, modern engines have become very quiet and cultivated.

 

[matbl]

I find it kind of amusing that when we are talking about what needs to be improved to increase European sales in countries where there isn't a huge tax benefit like Norway, you don't seem to trust us living in those markets when we describe what's holding it back.
But at the same time, why?

 

[AustinPowers]

matbl, did you mean me with your post? Or was your reply intended towards 3mp_kwh?

 

[dirkhh]

I find it kind of amusing that when we are talking about what needs to be improved to increase European sales in countries where there isn't a huge tax benefit like Norway, you don't seem to trust us living in those markets when we describe what's holding it back.
But at the same time, why?

Go back through the 150+ posts in this thread.
Here's the pattern:
- Europeans (Germans) are making well reasoned statements, usually backed by hard data, measurements, etc
- "True Believers" are tellings us we are wrong based on gut feeling, their personal preference, the knowledge that the Model S must be superior
- lather, rinse, repeat
I'll stop responding until a TB comes up with an actual data based argument.

 

[matbl]

Go back through the 150+ posts in this thread.
Here's the pattern:
- Europeans (Germans) are making well reasoned statements, usually backed by hard data, measurements, etc
- "True Believers" are tellings us we are wrong based on gut feeling, their personal preference, the knowledge that the Model S must be superior
- lather, rinse, repeat
I'll stop responding until a TB comes up with an actual data based argument.

Very true.
(Although I'm not German)

 

[jkirkebo]

As matbl correctly said, Model S of course is larger on the outside, but the usable interior space is not larger than an A6 or E-class, especially the (over here) very popular station wagons. Try transporting a washing machine (or any other cargo of comparable size) in a Model S. Not really possible (not even with the rear seats folded down, thanks to the sloping roofline).

Transporting a washing machine in a Model S is no problem. They are usually 60 by 60 cm wide/deep and around 80cm tall. Standing up is a no go, but if you lay it down so it's 60 cm tall and wide it fits just fine with the rear seats down.

I bought a Lazy Boy recliner recently, it came in a BIG box and one smaller one. The guy fetching it from storage couldn't believe his eyes when both boxes fit nicely in the back and with the trunk closed too

 

[HyperMiler]

Recently went to a Tesla Store in Seattle. No sales tax, tax credit and the same list price in dollars. My eyes (and mouth) started watering... . At that price, I would immediately buy in Germany.

By the way, obviously the car would not sell as briskly in the US at the European price, or else Tesla would likely charge that price?
So please do not hold our "frugality" against us... . :redface: On a sunny day, more than half of our electricity is PV.

Charger and PV installed, our second car is a Leaf. Down payment made for a Model S when the company was in dire straits (instead of buying shares :crying but still holding on to that A8 until I can reach a supercharger from within 100 mls of where I live... .

 

[dsm363]

Go back through the 150+ posts in this thread.
Here's the pattern:
- Europeans (Germans) are making well reasoned statements, usually backed by hard data, measurements, etc
- "True Believers" are tellings us we are wrong based on gut feeling, their personal preference, the knowledge that the Model S must be superior
- lather, rinse, repeat
I'll stop responding until a TB comes up with an actual data based argument.

It's possible both arguments have merit. No one including people in the US had seen an EV in this price range like this before so just because people think they wouldn't buy a car like this doesn't mean that none will consider it after a test drive at least. I'm sure you're right about the Model as not working for many Germans (at least those who need sustained 150km/h speeds. Maybe it will simply do much better in the rest of Europe than Germany. Will be interesting to see what happens. In the US, if gas hit $8/gallon more than a few people would be falling over themselves to order a Tesla purely for cost of ownership.