Speeds over 130kph are only legally possible in a very small portion of roads in Europe, most of which also happen to be in the home country of Audi/BMW/MB where Tesla would have a hard time penetrating to begin with. It therefore seems like it would be a waste of effort for them to even be concerned with it. There rest of the EU is huge market, ripe for the picking. Maybe in 5 years when battery technology has evolved, and Tesla isn't selling cars faster than it can make them we'll see a high speed version.
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AustinPowers
Total Smeghead
True, and this sums up nicely why Model S sales are how they are in Germany at the moment.
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The thing is, an M5 is not a typical Autobahn vehicle that should be compared to Model S, the aforementioned 535d or an A6 TDI or other high-performance diesel engines are far better at that. Remember, for many models cars with diesel engines constitute the majority of sales here, as they are far more economical (especially on long distance drives) yet still a lot of fun to drive. I know, in the US, big engines were (are?) more popular than small ones and diesel engines were (are?) quite unpopular, but over here it is the other way around.
As an American who has spent time living in Germany I can tell you that trips with sustained speed over 100mph would be considered normal. Americans may imagine this as extreme or speed demons wanting to get a fix but its really not like that. Its calm and organized on roads that are very well designed and maintained compared to the U.S.. Fast Diesel saloons like the 535d mentioned are perfect for this.
dirkhh
Middle-aged Member
Think of a country the size of Montana with twice the population of California and a very dense network of extremely will maintained roads and very disciplined drivers. You can only pass on the left and quickly learn to move over when someone faster comes from behind.
And yes, going 130mph you will regularly have people wanting to go faster than you...
And yes, going 130mph you will regularly have people wanting to go faster than you...
It may take some time, but I think eventually they will make some inroads. Americans generally embrace new technologies enthusiastically; it's cool just
because it's new. Europeans are somewhat more reluctant and don't try out new stuff without given a good reason to do so.
EarlyAdopter
Active Member
I assume that the two Audis and the BMW were in the same price category as your Model S ?
However, it would be much more comforting to hear a satisfied Audi or BMW owner state Tesla´s supreme quality, rather than someone who consider Audi and BMW to be crap - which they are not
I never said Audi's or BMWs were crap. Far from it. I loved all three of those cars. All I'm saying is, in my experience, the initial build quality on my Model S has proven to be better than my last three German cars.
Different people interpret quality differently
How exactly do you define quality?
EarlyAdopter
Active Member
The discussion was on build quality, which is commonly defined by how many times a car was in the shop in the first 3 or 12 months.
Please see my earlier post up thread for my experiences:
Europeanizing needed for the Model S - Page 10
i'm not talking about that kind of build quality. I'm talking about things like how big the gap is between body parts, how good the seams in seats are, how good the dashboard parts fit together, etc,etc.
AustinPowers
Total Smeghead
I second that.
Plus, if a car, any car, needs to go to the shop in the first 12 months at all, it would be considered a "monday car" over here, as normally cars that new don't need to go to a shop at all. What for anyway? The first service is usually after 20 to 30K kilometers. Otoh I agree with EarlyAdopter, if I had had such expieriences with BMW as he had, I would also not consider them to be good quality. Thankfully, my experience with them has been much better.
I will have the chance to properly evaluate Teslas quality as soon as I get my Model E. Which unfortunately will be quite a while from now.
That's reliability, that has nothing to do with the grade of interior materials, which are not up to the price of the car.
EarlyAdopter
Active Member
My original post was in response to an assertion that Tesla had "poor build quality" which I strongly disagree with, not "poor materials quality" which I moderately agree with.
Lets call it design quality then.
Design as in how tight the body parts fit, how the seats are, etc., etc.
Not design as in how the car looks.
100k€ Tesla S has approximately 20 k€ battery, which 100k€ ICE car does not have. I think because of this 20k additional cost Tesla has to cut costs somewhere. It is of course up to potential buyer, whether this is a problem or not.
At the moment Tesla is a small segment niche car and buyers don’t care so much, if the leather or floor carpet is not so luxurious as in other 100k€ cars. The problem arises when Tesla tries to sell cars to mass market.
At the moment Tesla is a small segment niche car and buyers don’t care so much, if the leather or floor carpet is not so luxurious as in other 100k€ cars. The problem arises when Tesla tries to sell cars to mass market.
HyperMiler
Member
Tesla competition in Germany
A Tesla is a magnificent, one-of-a kind vehicle, that in the US, and in the other well selling markets is competitively priced or even costs less than similar cars. In addition to the Autobahn speed issue (yes, we beeline at 100 mph and more every day, with great mileage turbo diesels), it is a serious obstacle that this is not the case in Germany. There are no government incentives, there are no luxury taxes on other cars and no support for installation of charging infrastructure.
So apart from the emotional and sustainability advantages, customers do compare cars on price. As discussed earlier in this thread, customers would consider a Tesla in comparison to a reasonably well equipped large Diesel or large petrol engine 5 series, A6 or E class. The price point of those cars is quite different, however.
Because of a 19% sales tax and an 11% (?) import tax, a well equipped MS 85 in Germany will cost in excess of € 100.000, $ 137,000, with the no money down lease as currently offered at $ 2,200 / month or more, with no negotiation space on price.
Due to competitive lease pricing, that is 1.3 to 1.5 times the amount of a similar list price BMW or Audi lease, and often twice as expensive as a well negotiated similarly equipped large Diesels, e.g. 535D or an A6 with 300 hp 600 Nm frugal consumption cars. In contrast to Norway, the Netherlands and the US, unfortunately and beyond the influence of Tesla, the Model S is much more expensive than in the US and not really competitively priced in Germany.:frown:
A Tesla is a magnificent, one-of-a kind vehicle, that in the US, and in the other well selling markets is competitively priced or even costs less than similar cars. In addition to the Autobahn speed issue (yes, we beeline at 100 mph and more every day, with great mileage turbo diesels), it is a serious obstacle that this is not the case in Germany. There are no government incentives, there are no luxury taxes on other cars and no support for installation of charging infrastructure.
So apart from the emotional and sustainability advantages, customers do compare cars on price. As discussed earlier in this thread, customers would consider a Tesla in comparison to a reasonably well equipped large Diesel or large petrol engine 5 series, A6 or E class. The price point of those cars is quite different, however.
Because of a 19% sales tax and an 11% (?) import tax, a well equipped MS 85 in Germany will cost in excess of € 100.000, $ 137,000, with the no money down lease as currently offered at $ 2,200 / month or more, with no negotiation space on price.
Due to competitive lease pricing, that is 1.3 to 1.5 times the amount of a similar list price BMW or Audi lease, and often twice as expensive as a well negotiated similarly equipped large Diesels, e.g. 535D or an A6 with 300 hp 600 Nm frugal consumption cars. In contrast to Norway, the Netherlands and the US, unfortunately and beyond the influence of Tesla, the Model S is much more expensive than in the US and not really competitively priced in Germany.:frown:
huntjo
Member
Dan43
Member
I feel this is a good point. In the UK similarly priced cars are extremely negotiable and it is not out of reason to get significant discounts on £70,000+ cars down to £55,000 or less, the new V6 Jaguar mid-range model is already down from £75,000 to £55,000 from some Jaguar dealers, with 100 miles on the clock or ex-demo with 2000 miles, the Tesla will have zero price movement or dealer incentives, the price is the price, outside used (which for new markets is a long way of)
It is an expensive car, no-body surely can disagree, and if the incentives are enough that is great, but for some it isn't as there just aren't any.
Plus the market for very expensive cars is relatively small already, so the Model S is probably more a heart & minds purchase, (unless electric is your chosen power train anyway due to drive/feel and liking for that power mode for your transport and also the petrol savings over electric charging) perhaps not so much a price based one.
I do feel the Model S 60kWh is the value in the range so far, IMHO...
It is an expensive car, no-body surely can disagree, and if the incentives are enough that is great, but for some it isn't as there just aren't any.
Plus the market for very expensive cars is relatively small already, so the Model S is probably more a heart & minds purchase, (unless electric is your chosen power train anyway due to drive/feel and liking for that power mode for your transport and also the petrol savings over electric charging) perhaps not so much a price based one.
I do feel the Model S 60kWh is the value in the range so far, IMHO...
Don't forget how much you'll be paying for many years of gasoline for the Jaguar or similar cars when you compare prices. I don't know about the UK but in most of the US electricity costs for Tesla is about 1/4 that of gasoline for an equivalent size car. We actually pay even less than that if most of the electricity for long distance trips comes from superchargers.
Brightonuk
Member
I for one put my name on the list for a Nissan Leaf the day after a got the email saying is it available for order.
I did not buy a roadster as at that time it was out of my price range and with two kids not realty practical anyway.
My decision to buy an Leaf was not due to the price of gas (it did help with the argument) but to make my point of there is something better than ICE cars.
Now I can afford to buy a model S not due to the price of gas but to continue to make a point that there are alternatives (and now really good ones).
I think most people buying a $100k+ car are not struggling to find the money to fill up their Panamera, or Jaguar, so one can only conclude you buy an EV to say FU OPEC and tell everyone at your parties how you are saving the ozone layer.:smile:
I like planet earth I want my kids to be able to breath the air in 10-20-30 years time, and If I in a minuscule way have helped that happen by driving an EV it was worth every penny.
I did not buy a roadster as at that time it was out of my price range and with two kids not realty practical anyway.
My decision to buy an Leaf was not due to the price of gas (it did help with the argument) but to make my point of there is something better than ICE cars.
Now I can afford to buy a model S not due to the price of gas but to continue to make a point that there are alternatives (and now really good ones).
I think most people buying a $100k+ car are not struggling to find the money to fill up their Panamera, or Jaguar, so one can only conclude you buy an EV to say FU OPEC and tell everyone at your parties how you are saving the ozone layer.:smile:
I like planet earth I want my kids to be able to breath the air in 10-20-30 years time, and If I in a minuscule way have helped that happen by driving an EV it was worth every penny.
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