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EV running costs starting to look expensive?

Jason71

Active Member
May 8, 2019
4,146
4,442
Shropshire
30% is quite pessimistic. The Tesla AC charger is rated at 95% efficiency and I routinely get between 80% (below 5 degree C) to 96% (15C) charging at 7kW at home. The lower efficiency mostly comes from the car needing to heat the battery to a suitable temperature, rather than an inherent loss of energy at lower temp (in other words, charging an already heated battery at freezing temp would still be as efficient).

Assuming an average temperature of 10C, we could expect 90% charge efficiency.

Idle drainage is car-dependent and seems to be negligible on other EVs and more modern Teslas. Taking my 2017 MS with MCU2 as an example: it consumes 30W on idle. Over the period of a year the car would consume ~262kWh which is not ideal, but acceptable. It was reported that newer Tesla (from 2021?) has improved on this drastically and could sleep for many hours.

Energy consumed for heating is a function of the set vs. outside temperatures. In an ICE additional energy loss is represented by the reduced MPG on cold engine, in an EV it is represented by the increased consumption in the beginning of the journey. After the initial periods the ICE of course gets the heating for 'free', but cabin cooling consumes energy for both ICE & EV.
Yes I agree 90% for a 7KW is typical. I am not just talking about just charge efficiency though.
Add to that, phantom drain, cabin preheat, battery heating, sentry, sitting in the car waiting for your kids to finish drama/music lesson/football (delete as applicable) etc
It will vary by person but add all that up and I think you will find I am not far off.

For the first 4 months of ownership I charged only from 1 charger so knew the exact amount of electricity used and what the car claimed to have used . Difference was >30%. Others have found similar.
A Tesla that is asleep may consume 30W but one that is awake consumes 200-300W even when parked and idle
 

Lord Farquad

2021 SR+ MIC LFP
Aug 20, 2021
215
198
North West
Is it down hill by any chance? what did you get on the way to work?
Need to add +30% to that if you really want to know what it's actually cost you since that is how much energy you will actually consume at the plug.
It’s flat through Liverpool city centre. I got 195wh/m on the way in but it was only 7 degrees. If it’d been later in the day I’d expect <180wh/m.
 
Glad I am not the only one who had to replace rears at 13K. I don't drive it like I stole it either. I was just doing a lot of miles on twisty Welsh A roads at the time and they seemed to just eat the rears. Fronts lasted 22K but Covid changed my driving patterns long before that so not a straight comparison.
Same here. Rears went at 17k, fronts are on 28k with 3.5mm left.

Something something weight transfer under acceleration.
 
Yeah those BMW diesels were very efficient compared to most. But still nowhere near as impressive as a Tesla drivetrain.
Yeah they were until they adblued them all lol, that stuff knocked the mpg down. Can’t wait to see what comes out over the next few years in EV’s though. I this article the other day


That’s some impressive real world range, without increasing battery capacity.
 
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Someone asked me how many MPG I get o_O So the sums I did are:

A Gallon is, say, £1.70 / L so 1.7 * 4.54 = £7.72 a gallon

Off Peak electricity = 7.5p / kWh and (I take a "best" figure) 4 miles per kWh

412 MPG

Hopefully he didn't see me snigger and smirk ...
I have Octopus Go still on 5p at home so 14 days at that, then 14 days at work where it costs me 0p (for now). It’s a win win lol
 
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Rooster6655

Active Member
May 3, 2019
1,893
738
UK
Glad I am not the only one who had to replace rears at 13K. I don't drive it like I stole it either. I was just doing a lot of miles on twisty Welsh A roads at the time and they seemed to just eat the rears. Fronts lasted 22K but Covid changed my driving patterns long before that so not a straight comparison.
I thought it was just the P- but as you have a LR seems like its probably just a combination of summer tyres, more power to the back wheels and driving style, I do wonder what the MY will be like on tyre wear but I expect better than the 3

The only bad thing about the Costco tyres is they make you change all 4 if its AWD and the difference between front and back is 4mm or more.
 
Yes I agree 90% for a 7KW is typical. I am not just talking about just charge efficiency though.
Add to that, phantom drain, cabin preheat, battery heating, sentry, sitting in the car waiting for your kids to finish drama/music lesson/football (delete as applicable) etc
It will vary by person but add all that up and I think you will find I am not far off.

For the first 4 months of ownership I charged only from 1 charger so knew the exact amount of electricity used and what the car claimed to have used . Difference was >30%. Others have found similar.
A Tesla that is asleep may consume 30W but one that is awake consumes 200-300W even when parked and idle
I could see where you were coming from but it would be misleading to potential EV owners to say that we lose 30% of energy due to phantom drain/heating/charging when the quoted MPG figures of ICE cars does not take those into account. The reasons for that being it is entirely dependent on personal circumstances and not the car's efficiency during driving. ICE cars get horrible efficiency as well on repeated short trips.
 

gangzoom

Active Member
May 22, 2014
1,564
1,436
Uk
It’s flat through Liverpool city centre. I got 195wh/m on the way in but it was only 7 degrees. If it’d been later in the day I’d expect <180wh/m.we

If efficiency and low consumption is your main focus you are in the wrong EV!!

For my daily 14-20 mile commute, depending on routing I use 66-80% SOC on my commuter EV.

The usable battery size is roughly 250whs. Assuming 10% efficiency loss in energy the consumption figures equate to roughly 70 miles per kWh, so interms of efficiency, am sorry but your EV is frankly pathetic ;).

I don't use off peak charging at home for the commuter EV. But because the efficiency is so amazing, even at 30p/kWh, the costs work out as 0.4p per mile.......as it happens I actually do 50% of the charging at work to avoid worrying about range on the return leg home, so fuel costs of commuter EV is roughly 0.2p per mile.

I've done 3000+ miles in it now, for a total fuel cost of £6. It also helps with CVS fitness and aweason handling, simply one of my favourite vehicles 😍....

51309256878_cbd0c48bd1_c_d.jpg


51309019971_b7c0145c82_c_d.jpg


However a 'P' version of it will soon by on the marker when Trek puts the latest Fazua drivetrian into a 2023 Domane frameset, 400Wh battery, carbon frame, fully integrated cabling, lighter weight, 20mph+ average speed across the city will be easily within reach. I don't really need the commuter EV to be any quicker across town, and the total cost of upgrading will be around £5000 after PX. Costly but its going to be hard to resist the temptation of been able to commute to work on something that has just been used to win the Paris–Roubaix.....

Paris-Roubaix-2022-new-Trek-Domane-31.jpg


In comparison I just filled up my wifes Lexus hybrid for the first time in months....£89 for an indicated range of just 500 miles!! Nearly 18p per mile, so 90(NINETY) times the cost of my commuter EV to refuel, without adding in the cost of insurance, MOT, service etc. And its so utter dull, boring to use! No wonder we barely drive the combustion car any more :).
 
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gangzoom

Active Member
May 22, 2014
1,564
1,436
Uk
'Bout the same as difference M3 and M3P when it first came onto the UK market :cool: Can't you get an OTA Acceleration Boost instead? 😜

Honestly just as with all EVs, I simply don't need anything faster. The scar from this barely healed before I did the same on the other arm this winter. No excuses, excessive speed is always the major factor in hitting the tarmac.

50089724476_cf899c66a7_w_d.jpg


It also wasn't long ago this little bugger decided been trapped in between my jacket and skin wasn't to its liking....and made its unhappiness known to me whilst I was on doing 25mph!!

51590910287_9c9bb69b85_w_d.jpg


Even just yesterday, mad cross wind meant I had to do a steering 'correction' mid corner/lean. But that's why I absolutely love the eBike for commuting, it turns a boring slog in traffic into something that gets the heart racing and fun.

An electric new Trek Domane looks really really nice, absolutely no brainer purchase as far as am concerned, just need to clearance from my wife. My plan of attack is to explain it would replace my current hybrid eBike and my Trek Madone road bike, so by buying it I would be reducing the number of bikes I own, so that would be a good thing......though I would need two wheels sets, winter + summer :D.
 

WannabeOwner

Well-Known Member
Nov 2, 2015
6,915
3,662
Suffolk, UK
The scar from this barely healed before I did the same on the other arm this winter

That's changed my understanding of Curb Rash ...

just need to clearance from my wife

I ask for forgiveness, rather than permission.

When I open with "Couldn't afford NOT to have it ..." she knows what's coming !
 
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Jason71

Active Member
May 8, 2019
4,146
4,442
Shropshire
I could see where you were coming from but it would be misleading to potential EV owners to say that we lose 30% of energy due to phantom drain/heating/charging when the quoted MPG figures of ICE cars does not take those into account. The reasons for that being it is entirely dependent on personal circumstances and not the car's efficiency during driving. ICE cars get horrible efficiency as well on repeated short trips.if you want to understand the true running cost of owning an EV
I disagree. If you want to know the true running cost of an EV you cannot ignore that. ICE do not use fuel when the engine is not running so there is no equivalent cost for ICE.
 
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I disagree. If you want to know the true running cost of an EV you cannot ignore that. ICE do not use fuel when the engine is not running so there is no equivalent cost for ICE.
ICE cars do consume fuel to keep the cabin heated and cooled, just like EVs ;) . If one wants to conserve energy when parked then it's possible to turn off the car (for both types). In fact, as I'm sure you are already aware, many ICE cars nowadays turn off their engine during short stops automatically when they won't be able to keep the cabin cooled. They won't be able to keep the cabin heated during long stops either without consuming fuel.

My point is that the only true loss when owning an EV is at the charging phase and the Tesla superchargers already take care of that by only charging owners by the amount of energy that entered the battery pack, so Tesla owners are partially protected by this.

ICE cars and EVs both consume energy when not driven too and their auxiliary battery needs to be topped off frequently. This is supposed to be negligible and does seem to be the case for other EVs and modern Teslas (sans Sentry mode which is not available in any other cars). There is no reason why an EV would inherently consume more energy when turned off than ICE cars so I'm afraid it isn't correct to say that the cost of owning/running an EV car is 30% that of the Wh/mile figure. As mentioned, ICE cars get horrid efficiencies on short trips too but no one uses the MPG figure there when comparing between cars.
 
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Dilly

Active Member
Feb 24, 2020
2,915
2,366
Norfolk
If efficiency and low consumption is your main focus you are in the wrong EV!!

For my daily 14-20 mile commute, depending on routing I use 66-80% SOC on my commuter EV.

The usable battery size is roughly 250whs. Assuming 10% efficiency loss in energy the consumption figures equate to roughly 70 miles per kWh, so interms of efficiency, am sorry but your EV is frankly pathetic ;).

I don't use off peak charging at home for the commuter EV. But because the efficiency is so amazing, even at 30p/kWh, the costs work out as 0.4p per mile.......as it happens I actually do 50% of the charging at work to avoid worrying about range on the return leg home, so fuel costs of commuter EV is roughly 0.2p per mile.

I've done 3000+ miles in it now, for a total fuel cost of £6. It also helps with CVS fitness and aweason handling, simply one of my favourite vehicles 😍....

51309256878_cbd0c48bd1_c_d.jpg


51309019971_b7c0145c82_c_d.jpg


However a 'P' version of it will soon by on the marker when Trek puts the latest Fazua drivetrian into a 2023 Domane frameset, 400Wh battery, carbon frame, fully integrated cabling, lighter weight, 20mph+ average speed across the city will be easily within reach. I don't really need the commuter EV to be any quicker across town, and the total cost of upgrading will be around £5000 after PX. Costly but its going to be hard to resist the temptation of been able to commute to work on something that has just been used to win the Paris–Roubaix.....

Paris-Roubaix-2022-new-Trek-Domane-31.jpg


In comparison I just filled up my wifes Lexus hybrid for the first time in months....£89 for an indicated range of just 500 miles!! Nearly 18p per mile, so 90(NINETY) times the cost of my commuter EV to refuel, without adding in the cost of insurance, MOT, service etc. And its so utter dull, boring to use! No wonder we barely drive the combustion car any more :).
We regularly pop out for lunch somewhere on our e-bikes. Trouble is, it takes so little effort that the calories we burn off allow us to eat no more than one finger of kitkat between us 😂
 

Jason71

Active Member
May 8, 2019
4,146
4,442
Shropshire
ICE cars do consume fuel to keep the cabin heated and cooled, just like EVs ;) . If one wants to conserve energy when parked then it's possible to turn off the car (for both types). In fact, as I'm sure you are already aware, many ICE cars nowadays turn off their engine during short stops automatically when they won't be able to keep the cabin cooled. They won't be able to keep the cabin heated during long stops either without consuming fuel.

My point is that the only true loss when owning an EV is at the charging phase and the Tesla superchargers already take care of that by only charging owners by the amount of energy that entered the battery pack, so Tesla owners are partially protected by this.

ICE cars and EVs both consume energy when not driven too and their auxiliary battery needs to be topped off frequently. This is supposed to be negligible and does seem to be the case for other EVs and modern Teslas (sans Sentry mode which is not available in any other cars). There is no reason why an EV would inherently consume more energy when turned off than ICE cars so I'm afraid it isn't correct to say that the cost of owning/running an EV car is 30% that of the Wh/mile figure. As mentioned, ICE cars get horrid efficiencies on short trips too but no one uses the MPG figure there when comparing between cars.
Tesla do not only charge you for what goes into the battery. They stopped that a couple of years back. they charge for everything the car receives including any used for heat or AC etc. while charging. What they don't charge for are the conversion and transmission losses which all others do
 

kelvin 660

White SR+ with LFP battery
Aug 21, 2020
544
450
Stonehouse
Tesla do not only charge you for what goes into the battery. They stopped that a couple of years back. they charge for everything the car receives including any used for heat or AC etc. while charging. What they don't charge for are the conversion and transmission losses which all others do
I just checked the last time I supercharged and according to TeslaFi, Used 17.07 and added 16.03 kWh and the invoice from Tesla was for 16 kWh. So they only charged for what was added to the battery... That was last October
 

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