Everything Electric Sydney (February 9-10-11, 2024)

[PC__LoadLetter]

Truth.
The most vocal section of the community about EV, electrification, carbon abatement are the Middle to upper income classes (including the private jet section) who are able to afford the transition and also reap subsidies in the process.

The wealthy sure do love their subsidies...

Ive always maintained that EV cars are not the way to go in cities. They just contribute to and will never alleviate congestion. "Clean" congestion is hardly a positive. Note the ULEZ situation in the UK with its unintended consequences. Governments should actually promote EV public transport - with smaller buses but more frequent services into more areas, not the current massive buses which only run on a very small section of total road surface.

Minibuses are generally a bad idea. Demand-responsive buses aren't a total financial disaster, but the way we expect them to work, they seem to always be. The ones in Moree, and similar towns, are fantastic though. They replaced route buses that used one full size bus on three separate laps of different parts of town that each operated 3x a day, 9 trips in total. Now they've basically put the local taxis out of business.

Minibuses are services for the welfare class, whose time isn't valuable.

Main road buses are services for working people, who just want to get from suburb to suburb quickly and without fuss.

Folks who choose to live in places where such services are uneconomic can book an Uber.

Apartments are actually built these days to promote non car ownership.

And I live in one of them. I'm not thrilled with it. I live a few buildings away from Barnaby's Tumble. The nearest supermarket (Canberra Centre) is out of walking distance with groceries, and is barely in walking distance without. And it doesn't have free parking. Dickson is almost as bad, Parking is OK provided you spend above the Coles parking minimum, but they built it way away from the tram stop. And it doesn't have an Aldi. I instead drive out to Jamison to do most of my shopping. So do a few of my neighbours, and a friend one suburb over. This is what happens when your public policy crams people into these inner city shoeboxes but they don't sweat the details during the planning.

I can get bread and milk from the local Ampol or 7-Eleven on the usual $6 combo special, but their milk is usually approaching its expiry date. Their bread isn't much better.

Subsidies should never be given to private transportation EV or not.

Electric charging should never be free. I would rather the "subsidy" be given to a pensioner who goes cold in winter.

Truth! There are lots of wealthy geezers and lots who aren't. And life truly sucks for those who aren't.

I grew up with a household rule where if I switched a 3rd light switch on, I had to pick another to switch off. 75 watts is 75 watts. We had no money, and thinking about saving the little bits made you also think about the big things. You survived it, you didn't thrive on it. Breaking out of that mess is for the young. But nowadays the young are being forced into untenable living conditions in many other ways.

You need people who can sweat the little things in charge of policy while also making moves towards good overall policy. Better than the current push towards "oh, let's just make everything green tomorrow and let the geezers freeze or boil to death in the dark". Sorry, "seasonal excess mortality".

 

[Vostok]

The wealthy sure do love their subsidies...

Well until recently, there were no meaningful subsidies whatsoever for buying EVs in this country, and those that were introduced were subsequently abolished. NSW had no subsidies of any kind until 2021, and then they were abolished 2 years later.

So not quite sure what you are on about…

And subsidies for rooftop solar have actually been most effective in lower income areas. In fact, there is a direct negative correlation between median household income in a given postcode, and the percentage of dwellings with rooftop solar in that postcode area. It is highest in the areas with the lowest incomes, and lowest in the areas with the highest incomes.

Turns out the SRES scheme has been brilliant social welfare for those who need it most. The poor are not subsidising the rich when it comes to rooftop solar, as certain media commentator love to claim.

 

[Quickst]

NSW had no subsidies of any kind until 2021, and then they were abolished 2 years later.

that is true but Feds still have them via the ATO

SRES scheme has been brilliant social welfare for those who need it most

Depends on what the "low income" standard is
Typically the people who have solar panels are those who own their own home and have enough income stability to buy a mortgage (well the mortgage may mean their home equity may just be the door bell but that's another story). Low income people who rent typically don't have the income to be able to afford such items in their budget. Low income people living in rented apartments don't benefit at all - no EV charging (in fact some with no in-building parking) . Those who are living in rented houses also come up against landlords who baulk at installing solar panels. I don't understand this concept. I would have thought that providing solar for tenants is a sure way to reduce their costs but there you go.

 

[Quickst]

We had no money

We have come a long way
As a kid we used to go with dad to the local colliery up in the Blue Mountains with the box trailer to get black coal for the fireplace. Cant remember what the price was but it was cheap. The Coal was for the power stations but there would be a local supply for the town. Shovel your own obviously

Now I am exporting 20,000kWh p.a. to the street

 

[leonk]

that is true but Feds still have them via the ATO

Depends on what the "low income" standard is
Typically the people who have solar panels are those who own their own home and have enough income stability to buy a mortgage (well the mortgage may mean their home equity may just be the door bell but that's another story). Low income people who rent typically don't have the income to be able to afford such items in their budget. Low income people living in rented apartments don't benefit at all - no EV charging (in fact some with no in-building parking) . Those who are living in rented houses also come up against landlords who baulk at installing solar panels. I don't understand this concept. I would have thought that providing solar for tenants is a sure way to reduce their costs but there you go.

There's no incentive for a tenant to want to upgrade a landlords property (when they could be out within 12 months) and no incentive for a landlord to do something that only helps a tenants power bills go down.

There are so many problems with housing in this country. That's just one of them.

 

[cafz]

There's no incentive for a tenant to want to upgrade a landlords property (when they could be out within 12 months) and no incentive for a landlord to do something that only helps a tenants power bills go down.

I mean in theory tenant should be prepared to pay a little more for a property with solar that'll cut their energy bills (same with upgrades like insulation and double-glazing, although the solar benefit is a lot easier to quantify) - but in practice that doesn't seem to be the case.

 

[PC__LoadLetter]

I mean in theory tenant should be prepared to pay a little more for a property with solar that'll cut their energy bills (same with upgrades like insulation and double-glazing, although the solar benefit is a lot easier to quantify) - but in practice that doesn't seem to be the case.

No tenant would want to pay another $10-$20/wk to save a fraction of that per week in power bills. Renters are hosed by the solar revolution. And nobody has $900k (or the borrowing capacity for that) to buy a house unless they were already wealthy.

We have serious problems in this country. Solar has some place, sure, but the skewing of subsidies to landowners is abhorrent.

 

[cafz]

No tenant would want to pay another $10-$20/wk to save a fraction of that per week in power bills. Renters are hosed by the solar revolution.

Of course no-one would want to pay more than they stand to save.

However, saving in the ballpark of $10 a week is certainly achievable - that's something like 6kWh/day of energy offset. Just background loads (fridge etc) during the sunny part of the day would account for a third of that. And certainly this means that those with more daytime electricity consumption would be more strongly drawn to those houses, but that just seems like the efficient answer anyway!

Oh, and the energy distribution networks seem to all be proposing (finally!) "solar soak" tariffs for the 2024-2029 regulatory period, which will serve to make cheaper daytime electricity available for everyone (but of course those without solar will benefit more!) - this being a dividend of the "solar revolution".

 

[Vostok]

Yes, and staying “renters are hosed by the solar revolution” is unnecessarily emotive if not inaccurate language. Not all landlords are penny-pinching a-holes, some would see rooftop solar as a capital improvement on the value of their property (which it is) and so a worthwhile investment. Also that property is more likely to attract tenants who care about reducing fossil fuel use, as well as getting a smaller electricity bill.

 

[Power Hungry]

Oh, and the energy distribution networks seem to all be proposing (finally!) "solar soak" tariffs for the 2024-2029 regulatory period, which will serve to make cheaper daytime electricity available for everyone (but of course those without solar will benefit more!) - this being a dividend of the "solar revolution".

Bring it on I say. We live on a golf resort and body corporate will not permit solar on our fragile terracotta tile roofs. If I were living under different conditions I would have installed solar long ago. So it's nice to think that we (a-solar types due to circumstances) might benefit somewhat.

 

[cafz]

Bring it on I say. We live on a golf resort and body corporate will not permit solar on our fragile terracotta tile roofs. If I were living under different conditions I would have installed solar long ago. So it's nice to think that we (a-solar types due to circumstances) might benefit somewhat.

I think you're in the Energex area? Unfortunately, their next regulatory period doesn't begin until July 2025, so you have a bit longer to wait.

This is the AER site for the next Energex determination, if you want to send feedback on it when it starts going through the draft process (the Tariff Structure Statement is the bit you'll probably be most interested in):

https://www.aer.gov.au/industry/registers/determinations/energex-determination-2025-30