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Express Supercharger?

Discussion in 'Charging Standards and Infrastructure' started by nwdiver, Dec 27, 2016.

?

'Express Supercharger Bay' Idle fees start after ~15 minutes.

  1. Yes

    7 vote(s)
    43.8%
  2. No

    9 vote(s)
    56.3%
  1. nwdiver

    nwdiver Active Member

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    I saw a disturbing video of a line ~21 deep in Barstow... no doubt some of these cars only needed a few kWh to make it where they were going... I thought it'd be interesting to see the communities response to the idea of an 'Express Bay'. Where idle fees start after ~15 minutes or so.

    IMO this would encourage more efficient use of the system... people wouldn't linger longer than is necessary at choke points like Barstow. I agree that this would serve no purpose at ~95% of superchargers but there are times and locations that it could really help.
     
  2. TexasEV

    TexasEV Well-Known Member

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    Holiday weekends are unique situations. An "edge case", as Elon might say. It's like trying to get a cell phone signal at the Super Bowl.
     
  3. JeffK

    JeffK Well-Known Member

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    I don't understand this poll. Idle fees are supposed to start after 5 min when implemented and you are suggesting an "express supercharger bay" that they idle fees don't start until 15 minutes? What?

    Supercharger Idle Fee

    I fail to understand how that would be more efficient...
     
  4. nwdiver

    nwdiver Active Member

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    I'm suggesting one of the bays or two bays (one charger) become an 'Express' charger. Similar to the express lane at a supermarket (15 items or less). You plug in... wait with your car and MUST be unplugged in <15 minutes or you start accruing 'idle' fees. This way cars that only need 10kWh to make it home or to the next SC aren't waiting behind a line of cars that need to charge for an hour.

    It would be more efficient due to the charge taper.
     
    • Like x 2
  5. David99

    David99 Active Member

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    There are not enough chargers. That's the problem. We can try everything we want to optimize the existing chargers but the fact doesn't change, there are not enough. When 21 cars line up, that's pretty obvious.
     
    • Like x 2
  6. nwdiver

    nwdiver Active Member

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    True... the real solution is more bays... but I could see how an express lane could help ease some congestion.

    Take Barstow for example... if your next stop is Tejon you could quickly grab a few kWh and head to Mojave THEN Tejon. But... if you just waited in line for ~2 hours you're much more likely to charge longer so you can make Tejon directly. Providing the option of a shorter line for a quick charge instead of a full charge could help. This could also motivate people to wait longer at a less congested SC like Primm so they don't need to get as much juice in Barstow.
     
  7. Saghost

    Saghost Active Member

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    Yup. But that's a temporary problem. Certainly painful for anyone caught in it, but something Tesla will be building their way out of as time goes on.

    You'll notice that this year no one is complaining about delays at Tejon Ranch, the source of drama last year. Tesla opened ten stalls in Buttonwillow in January of this year and ten more in Bakersfield in September to supplement the six stalls at Tejon.

    It's obvious that Barstow is currently a chokepoint - undoubtedly the reason it was the station sabotaged a month ago right before the holiday. Tesla will need to add some additional locations as alternatives to it in the future, but I'm confident that they will.

    They also need a way to notify people of current and upcoming delays - which I think is supposed to start in 8.1 with real time supercharger status and will likely eventually become something like traffic rerouting - a server that knows the ETAs of all the cars running on Nav will start adjusting stops and charge times to minimize the conflicts and level the load on nearby superchargers.
     
    • Like x 2
    • Informative x 1
  8. JeffK

    JeffK Well-Known Member

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    I think if Supercharger V3 is going to become a reality I think this issue will resolve itself eventually. Especially if Model 3 is capable of super supercharging.
     
  9. David99

    David99 Active Member

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    Looking at Tesla's progress with Superchargers in in the last 2 year indicates that they are not up to fill the demand once the Model 3 hits the market. There are already bottlenecks. Not all the time, but on busy days and that's what makes the news and waiting in line for 2 hours would have had my family freak out. They would not put up with it. As I said, the only solution is more charging stalls. And honestly I don't understand Tesla on this. Once you build a site, why only 5 or 8 stalls? Put in 12 or 20.

    I think a valet service would be the best option for those busy days. Implementing complicated cost systems that wealthy people don't care about anyways would have limited success. A valet service would move the cars in and out as soon as they're done. Tesla has done that successfully at some locations already.
     
    • Like x 1
  10. nwdiver

    nwdiver Active Member

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    I'm highly skeptical of charge rates >200kW. They can't change the nominal pack voltage of existing cars... and if they make new cars with higher voltages then how will existing superchargers charge them? Keeping the same pack voltage means you need higher current to deliver more power. The amount of heat generated quadruples with every doubling of current.

    And that's without getting into the ability of the local grid to support such a rapid discharge of energy. Superchargers are already somewhat limited in terms of where they can be located. A 350kW SC would be even more limited. Time will tell... but there are significant hurdles that need to be overcome.
     
    • Like x 1
  11. MP3Mike

    MP3Mike Active Member

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    That is why Elon said that the V3 Superchargers require Powerpack 2s. So that they can supply that level of power to the cars even when the local grid can't. (And in some cases completely off-grid via solar.)
     
    • Like x 3
  12. JeffK

    JeffK Well-Known Member

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    Consider for a second that there are moments when 400V at 1500 Amps are pulled from those packs ( for a 100kWh pack that'd be a 6C discharge rate and the battery has onboard cooling). Charge rates have always been far lower for those particular Panasonic cells.

    Now, that doesn't mean it's impossible to charge faster, as a matter of fact there are Li-Ion batteries that can be charged at 6C. If the 21700 cells were designed with this in mind then there's no reason to think they can't handle 6C charging rates.

    As far as power delivery there are a number of solutions. This bus uses bursts of 600kW
    ABB Gets $16 Million Order For 600 kW Flash Charging For Electric Buses
    as far as I know they use ultracapacitors at the charging stations to eliminate grid issues. The buses themselves have a 38 kWh battery
     
  13. NOLA_Mike

    NOLA_Mike Grouchy

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    Honestly, you'd have to be a complete a$$wipe if you didn't get in and get out as quick as you could when there are 20+ cars waiting to charge. I would feel so much pressure to leave with a line queued I'd be sitting in my car itching to get out as soon as I had enough charge to get to the next charger.
     
    • Love x 1
  14. nwdiver

    nwdiver Active Member

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    #14 nwdiver, Dec 28, 2016
    Last edited: Dec 28, 2016
    There's a HUGE difference between pulling 1500A for a few seconds under peak acceleration and maintaining it for minutes to charge. Equally HUGE difference between the cabling in the car from the battery to the Drive Unit vs SC cabinet to SC bay.

    Many of the higher commercial charge rates are possible due to higher voltages... not higher amps. 350kW vs 135kW is ~7x as much heat. Tesla will either need a higher voltage pack, liquid cooled cables or superconductors... or all three.

    Well... those people are obviously out there or we wouldn't have idle fees...

    I like the idea of an express lane... you can choose between getting the bare minimum to get to the next SC or wait another 2 hours... it also must be incredibly annoying to wait behind ~20 cars each possibly charging to ~90% with that painfully slow taper >50% when you just need a few kWh... that would take ~5 minutes.
     
  15. JeffK

    JeffK Well-Known Member

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    Aren't we lucky then that there's going to be both new superchargers and new vehicles with an entirely new battery pack.
     
  16. nwdiver

    nwdiver Active Member

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    If Tesla goes to a higher pack voltage they'll have to upgrade all existing SCs... that'll take awhile. Going from 90kW to 135kW was simple... they just added a few more modules in parallel. Increasing voltage means replacing everything.
     
  17. roblab

    roblab Active Member

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    I really like the idea of an express lane. 15 minute charging, and it CUTS OFF. There is no reason that if a car pulled in with 10% charge that they could not get plenty enough in 15 minutes to make it to Mojave. Not fees, just short charge. At the average speed of a little over 4 miles of charge per minute, you'd have 60 miles plus buffer. Mojave is 70. Keeping the speed down to the limit, like following a truck or camper, you'd make it easy. At low initial battery charge, you'd probably get more than 4 miles of charge per minute.

    When I travel, I rarely need more than 15 - 20 minutes of charge anywhere. Having to charge much longer means that the driver is a newbie, or wants to drive excessively fast ("Hey, I have to wait an hour for a charge, but I save an hour doing 80 to the next charger!!"), or they are careless, thoughtless, selfish and want to have a leisurely dinner for over an hour.

    Most of the problem chargers are in areas where an express charger would get the traveler on down the road quickly as he would only need 60 miles to make it to the next charger or home, and yet would discourage the local from plugging in because he'd have to move his car every 15 minutes. Free supercharging never promised a full charge, did it? It's supposed to get you to the next charger, not to the end of the week. It's for travel, not daily use.
     
  18. cpa

    cpa Active Member

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    NW, I think this is a good idea in principle. But how many Tesla owners are members here or on Tesla's forum? I would think that for the vast majority of ordinary people "express" Superchargers would be confusing. Location X has one, but locations A, B, C and D do not.

    Over the years I have met many people at Superchargers who were blissfully unaware of the protocols and procedures of Supercharging. Some always charged to 90%, regardless of next stop. Some are locals who fill up twice per week. Some had no idea about reduced rates while paired. Some have no clue as to the substantial efficiency losses with weather, elevation gain, et cetera. Tesla does a very poor job in educating its customers about these things. I do not expect any improvement from them after the Model III is released. To have an Express Supercharger at selected locations would only add to the confusion and ignorance of 90%+ of ownership.

    Your idea might work if Tesla differentiated the Express Superchargers from the ordinary ones. But the location would have to be different, the stalls would have to look different, and the pins on the touchscreen would have to be different. Perhaps Tesla should also charge a modest fee ($2.50) for these 15 minutes.

    People in a hurry, tired or distracted frequently do not pay attention to detail. To have an express Supercharger stall adjacent to 8 others would not be apparent to a lot of folks, even if the stalls were labeled and painted purple with orange polka dots. And I believe this would lead to more public relations problems for Tesla.

    The easiest answer was stated above: Increase the redundancy along highly-traveled routes. Build SC in Victorville and Baker for the LA-Vegas crowd. Increase the stalls to a minimum of ten. Finally, get some sort of "smart" notifications available on the touchscreen for us travelers to keep up abreast of the usage and turnover at every Supercharger along our route.
     
  19. nwdiver

    nwdiver Active Member

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    As prefaced in the title... I wouldn't propose this as some kind of etiquette but as part of the idle fee program. The Stations could be boldly red instead of white and you would get the same text warning you get at all the stations about idle fees. 'This is an express bay; idle fees start in 20 minutes'

    I was curious to see the response... it's apparently not favored... moving on :)
     
  20. ecobon

    ecobon Member

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    How would you get to the express charger if there is someone ahead of you that is waiting for a full-charge? Will there be extra incentives to use an Express Charger e.g. no credits taken away during peak periods for 2017+ delivered vehicles?
     

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