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Faster A/C charging?
- Thread starter Terryaki
- Start date
Battery life is hurt by over temperature and overcharging. If there is sufficient cooling, the charging circuitry controls the battery charging precisely to avoid overcharging any particular cell, and they taper off the charge rate so charging remains in the controllable range, battery damage will be negligible.
The Nissan Leaf set a bad early example by offering poor thermal management and their batteries were noticeably damaged by frequent fast charging. Teslas don't have this problem.
golfpilot
Member
I left the other day on a 700 mile drive with only 60% charge. Not being at 100% charge added maybe 10 minutes to the entirety of my drive. The night before I got back at 8:30 and left at 3:30 in the AM. The need for 80amp charging is becoming less and less of an issue the more superchargers pop up. ~30mph of charge is enough for people to get home late, leave early, and still have enough to find a fast charger and the 99.99% of the time they aren't in a rush, that 32AMP charger will do the trick.
At least Tesla doesn't admit to it being a problem, but I know it was an issue with early Model Ss. My friend used supercharges exclusively and after three years found her range down to 71% of original capacity.
Life With Tesla Model S: Does Supercharging Cut Battery Capacity?
Last month, my wife and I took my 2013 Tesla Model S on a day trip from our home in New York’s Hudson Valley to Brattleboro, Vermont, a distance of 180 miles. We picked up our daughter, charged the 85-kilowatt-hour battery up to 98 percent at the Brattleboro Supercharger, and returned home via a...
A study from the Idaho National Laboratory found it's true that consistent use of DC fast charging (aka Level 3 charging) would cause an EV battery to deteriorate faster. Also, a Tesla Model S rental car did 500k miles in 700 supercharger cycles over 2 years and ended up with 80% capacity, which was probably related to multiple charges to maximum battery.
I am sure that Tesla has incorporated new thermal battery management technology and this may not be as much of an issue with later models.
You are extremely off base here. You are taking a thing you have heard and not realizing it doesn't apply in this context. That is about "fast" charging, which is like Superchargers--100+ kW kind of power levels. This thread is about charging from home residential AC circuits, which are ALL extremely slow charging. This is quibbling about the difference between like 7 kW or 12 kW, which is absolutely a don't care from the battery's perspective.
Some of us live where the ground is rock and everything is overhead. I had 24KW of solar installed, it cost me ~$400 to have my transformer upgraded. If I could have provided the upgrade was due to load it would have been a free upgrade. I currently have one 11.5KW EVE and one 9.6KW eve a heat pump water heater and heat pumps for heating & AC. I have an induction range on order to replace my propane cooktop and will replace my propane dryer with a heat pump dryer when my propane one is ready to retire. When my tri-motor CT arrives I hope that I will accept faster than 11.5KW of charging. I will install a matching EVE and schedule a transformer upgrade, this time paid for by my electric company.
In the last year, my max pull from the electric company was a spike to 28.22kW including a couple of resistive heaters (4k square foot house, Feb in Maine).
As for CT's I already have 15 of them installed to track usage, if I had to install another two I don't see that as a big deal. I am on the waitlist for power walls, if they ever get installed, they have CT's in the gateway.
@kayak1 In a thread that is about the CyberTruck, your continual use of CT to stand for current transformers keeps throwing me off.
I should not have used CT for a current transformer in a CyberTruck thread.
Current Transformers allow me to track data.
Given that the Gen 2 HPWC is still common (and was for a while at least available from Tesla in addition to the Gen 3), and supports up to 80A charging, I think it's reasonable to expect Tesla may offer higher current charging on the large-battery vehicles than the 48A that most current models are limited to. In the same way as the long-range models support 48A while standard-range support only 32A, it would be reasonable for them to continue that pattern on vehicles with even larger batteries. It's silly to argue about what homes can support, since there's no requirement to install the larger current options, but it's good to have that option available for anyone who's interested and is able to support it.
Similarly to how Tesla offered the higher current version of the NEMA 14-50 mobile connector even after releasing the newer Gen 2 mobile connector, it shouldn't be an issue for them to continue offering the Gen 2 HPWC if they don't want to upgrade the Gen 3 version for higher current support, as an option for the (relative minority, most likely) who do need higher than 48A AC charging.
Similarly to how Tesla offered the higher current version of the NEMA 14-50 mobile connector even after releasing the newer Gen 2 mobile connector, it shouldn't be an issue for them to continue offering the Gen 2 HPWC if they don't want to upgrade the Gen 3 version for higher current support, as an option for the (relative minority, most likely) who do need higher than 48A AC charging.
But there is no "continue". They killed it years ago. This is why I am sure there is not going to be anything higher than 48A offered again in their charging products or vehicles.
Well, an optimist would say that years ago, a 600+KWH battery would never exist, nor need to be charged in < 2 days* if it did.
Now remember, there's two parts to this: the AC/DC converter, and the charger itself. If the Semi has multiple batteries with multiple charge paths (4x250KW DC, right?) maybe something similar could exist with the Cybertruck on an AC level. Even my beloved old P85D (may she rest in peace) used two AC/DC units. I don't agree with it, but I could see how they streamlined production to only allow one charger. Well, maybe CT will have more than one.
This leaves the plausibility of a larger single phase AC charger for debate. 80A (220V 100A circuit) is easy; I have never seen a single phase panel more than 220A, 200A being more common... so lets assume that it isn't practical for more than a single 35.2KWH charger (and that's taking an entire drop). Anything higher than that would require a three phase drop (uncommon for a residential service provider, they certainly don't do it here).
So maybe someone could write up a random number generator program to pick a number between 48 and 160?
As one of the people who paid extra for two chargers, and extra for the line to my garage for a proper, grounded, etc 100A dedicated circuit, just so I could charge faster for whatever reason I wanted to that day, I will say for the record I want something faster than 48A if I have a significantly larger battery (like the CT will have). As a post a few pages back stated, this isn't for people hauling groceries two miles once a week; people will be using this truck for real work (LOL, electrician joke, see what I did there?) and can't have a vehicle out of service for more than a day.
Or, after Tesla makes electric vehicles the norm, we can make three phase residential service the norm... and all do fast DC charging... sigh.
* OK, fine, less than 31.25h with the 19.2KW max Gen 1 charger, but I'm rounding up!
israndy
Supercharger Hunter
And the mistaken title of the thread makes me think we are topping up the refrigerant in the air conditioning quickly
A/C != AC
Not sure why no one has mentioned DC Charging at home, 25kWs anyone? It likely will be coming down in price and allow DC access to the battery meaning it could provide bi-directional power too, something that would be nice at our cabin. Although I suppose I can also just plug the generator box into the 240v inverter output in the bed of the CT
Yeah, if we could do DC charging it would take out most of the problem- we'd be clear on pretty much any [newer] model up to 250KW. That's fast enough.
The problem is finding a single phase (input) DC charging unit... anything I've found, supercharger or otherwise, needs a 3Ph source. I [am lucky enough to] have three phase primaries above my garage, but ComEd won't sell it to me without an industrial contract ($$$$ monthly). There are a lot of the regions of the country where residential neighborhoods only get a single phase primary.
You are talking about progression, and let's look at what Tesla's progression has been with respect to AC charging levels.
They used to offer 80A.
Then it was only 72A.
Then it was only 48A.
The wall connectors used to offer 80A and now reduced to 48A.
They have continually reduced and reduced the maximum power level they offer for AC charging. They have been giving a very clear signal that they don't want to offer anyone high amp AC charging. "If you want faster than that, go to a Supercharger."
Yes, I think it is a bad decision to stop offering higher power AC charging, but it's what they did. The 40 + 40 was an interesting way to keep it available for customers while still keeping the parts catalog small.
I did some Googling around, and there are some, but they are a few thousand dollars. They can run from input supplies of 208V or 240V.
israndy
Supercharger Hunter
I typed DC in the search field and got this replacement text:
Seems getting something like this, or that 25kW ChargePoint unit all the Harley Dealerships are putting in would be MUCH cheaper than retrofitting your house with Heat Pumps and Solar just to charge a bit faster
also:
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Erm, not really "a bit", but I digress. Capacity - up to ~35KW (math shown above) - isn't the problem. I'd even say a higher (but rational, like $1/2K) price isn't a problem, for selected customer profiles. But I /want/ a Tesla endorsed solution, with some electrical/battery engineer way smarter than me that says "here's how to charge this fast, safely". Just like the Gen1/Gen2 wall connector, I'll accept hard wiring. For the full 35KW I can accept a dedicated drop/panel, as long as it is single phase.
A[n official Tesla] supercharger is 3p 480V (or higher, I assume) input. I can't realistically get that. The Chademo/CCS2 chargers that malls are installing, at least that I've found, are also 3ph (mostly 208Vx3ph). There probably are a few @israndy, feel free to post what you found; hopefully there are more; hopefully someone is reading these posts and their entrepreneurial lightbulb is now lit and they're working on it, and they sell it to Elon and get it on the docket. At least that way, we don't need to worry about what's in the car, and we just assume 48A is the most you'll ever need on a conventional electrical plug.
I've been following dcbel for quite a while. It seems they may have something actually available now. I was thinking about getting their system to use with our Leaf so the Leaf's CHAdeMO could serve as stationary V2G backup but we got rid of it before dcbel got their product launched.I typed DC in the search field and got this replacement text:
The debate over onboard -vs- offboard chargers was a big point of discussion back in the '90's. It was as big as inductive -vs- conductive chargers.
GM and Toyota chose offboard inductive (Magnecharger) while Ford and Honda chose onboard conductive (AVCON - that later became J-1772).
Some of the big questions are:
- is it worth hauling the heavy transformer around in your car with you all the time or should we just leave it at the charging site?
- If we're using a public chargers most of the time (including fast chargers), is it worth even paying for our own charger?
Clearly, these were all good topics and, lucky for humanity, NACS (unlike J-1772, Type-2, CCS, and CHAdeMO) supports either onboard or offboard, thus allowing the market to determine which is truly best.
Don't worry folks, there are still the questions of Conductive -vs- Inductive, 3-phase -vs- single-phase, and English -vs- Metric so there will still be plenty to argue about on the internet for a while longer.
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