Fatal Model S accident

[ai4px]

At a macro level we can blame U.S. traffic engineers who design roads differently than engineers elsewhere. Engineers in Europe assume that drivers will make bad decisions and they design roads accordingly to enforce safer driving. U.S. traffic engineers design roads for much higher speeds and then say that drivers need to take responsibility for obeying the rules, paying attention and driving safely.

A young girl is dead. Who is responsible?

I've driven around and ridden on motorcycles through Germany and noticed that very often the speed limit on German backroads is based on the proximity to driveways. The feeling I got was that if you were likely to have a car pull out of a driveway or blind curve, they slowed you down... but if it was just a curve that you should be able to negotiate, the speed limit was kept high. This is different that the speed limits and road markings I see in the USA.... the engineers here seem worried about the driver of the car's safety instead of people entering the road. For example, a curve will advise a lower speed whether there's any driveways or cross streets. In front of the entrance to my neighborhood, there is a passing zone... meaning that despite needing to turn right onto the highway, I might just end up head long into an on coming passing car.

So, IMHO, the european (german) roads are worried about interactions others may have with your car. The USA seems only worried about the safety of the driver on the road.

 

[SSonnentag]

In the US, there is effectively no penalty for driving without a license or insurance. I wonder how this compared to other parts of the world.

 

[SSonnentag]

Japan, Spain, New Zealand, South Korea, Belgium and a few other countries have higher fatality rates/mile or km driven. So the US isn't the worst of developed countries.

Wikipedia

 

[okcorral]

Airbags + seatbelts = safety, this is true, but they weren't designed to be together necessarily. The DeLorean, for example, was going to have airbags but not seatbelts as standard equipment originally. This was back in the early 80s when people were talking about "getting thrown clear" of an accident as if that was some kind of preferable thing though, but it does highlight how the 2 safety devices have converged even though they were not originally designed to exist together.

I don’t condone this at all and is probably 1 in 10000. My sister rolled her F150 at high speed and was thrown out of the truck while it flipped over and over and she walked away. The emergency responders said the end result of the wreck isn’t consistent with life. In this scenario my sister’s life was probably saved. But, you won’t find me not buckling up.

 

[pete8314]

Airbags, by definition, are a Supplementary Restraint System, i.e. supplemental to the seat belts. There's always the edge case where being thrown clear of a wreck saved someone, but, it's an edge case.

Having driven in the UK for 20yrs, and Texas for 10yrs, there's clear differences in driving style (i.e. lane discipline), the quality of signage and the mechanical state of vehicles. There's stuff on the roads here that would be completely illegal elsewhere, and in TX at least, there's a lot of uninsured drivers. Plus the use of mobile phones while driving is still not illegal in the majority of states.

 

[Acho]

Plus the use of mobile phones while driving is still not illegal in the majority of states.

I always had problem understanding why it is illegal ti use cell phone /for calls, not texting/. If you are distracted when on phone call then hands free calls should be banned too. And if you are distracted because you hold the phone in your hand what about holding your cofee or protein bar?

May be I am not bright enough to see the difference

 

[InABottle]

I always had problem understanding why it is illegal ti use cell phone /for calls, not texting/. If you are distracted when on phone call then hands free calls should be banned too. And if you are distracted because you hold the phone in your hand what about holding your cofee or protein bar?

May be I am not bright enough to see the difference

You really can't see the difference between needing to look down for a few seconds x number of times rather than putting a protein bar in your mouth?

 

[arcus]

If you are distracted when on phone call then hands free calls should be banned too.

Perhaps it didn't happen to you yet where a person holding his/her phone to the ear starts veering into your lane without a warning...

It is not just a distraction because of multitasking - holding your phone (at least like most of the right-handed people I've seen do) also limits your side/peripheral vision to the left of the car.

 

[wdolson]

Airbags, by definition, are a Supplementary Restraint System, i.e. supplemental to the seat belts. There's always the edge case where being thrown clear of a wreck saved someone, but, it's an edge case.

Having driven in the UK for 20yrs, and Texas for 10yrs, there's clear differences in driving style (i.e. lane discipline), the quality of signage and the mechanical state of vehicles. There's stuff on the roads here that would be completely illegal elsewhere, and in TX at least, there's a lot of uninsured drivers. Plus the use of mobile phones while driving is still not illegal in the majority of states.

I have a friend who is from the UK and lived here in the US for a while. When in the UK he supplemented his income buying cars that wouldn't pass MOT, fixing them up to pass and flipping them. He knows the UK vehicle maintenance laws like the back of his hand as a result. In his opinion, not having anything like MOT in the US meant some unsafe cars were on the road, but he also thought US roads were vastly better quality and vastly safer and better built than UK roads for the most part.

I don't know if other countries in Europe have anything similar to MOT. That does make it more difficult to own an older car in the UK, but it also keeps cars that may be dangerous off the road. Most European countries have tougher requirements for getting a driver's license and it's easier to lose if you're a bad driver. Europe also tends to have better public transport options so those who aren't allowed to drive, or don't want to drive can get where they want to without too much extra hassle.

In the US, there are a lot of places where if you don't have a driver's license and a car/truck, you're home-bound. My SO is dealing with this with her Psychological counseling agency. They do domestic violence and anger management intervention. Her agency is one of the few that serve rural parts of the state and she has been advocating for video conferencing as a means of treatment and she fights with Seattle based people who argue that people who can't drive or don't have a car can just get on a bus or get an Uber. She tried to point out to them that she has clients who are 20 miles or more from the nearest public transport who lost their license due to a road rage incident or some other reason. And Uber doesn't extend to the rural parts of the state. Others have severe financial problems and can't afford a car right now (many times due to the consequences that landed them at their agency to begin with).

In rural areas of the US driving without a license and insurance may just be a calculated risk at least some people on the road. These are among the highest risk for an accident because they usually have some behavioral reason why they don't have a license. It happens in urban areas too (I got rear ended by an uninsured driver on the I-5 to I-84 ramp in Portland 20 years ago), but there are other options that takes some of these people off the road.

Comparing road safety between the US and Europe is difficult because there are many variables and they point in opposite trends. Some point to better safety for one over the other and others point the opposite way. If data down to the county (or equivalent) were available for both the US and Europe, the data would probably interleave quite a bit with some counties on both continents being quite dangerous and others being quite safe. I'd be hard pressed to predict which jurisdiction would be the absolute safest and which the absolute most dangerous.

 

[Johann Koeber]

In the US, there is effectively no penalty for driving without a license or insurance. I wonder how this compared to other parts of the world.

Here in Germany that would be a criminal action. The penalty ranges from a monetary fine to prison sentence of up to one year. This goes for either one of the offences.

After that you will have a hard time getting a license.

 

[BobbyKings]

Putting sad things into perspective:

Elon Musk on Twitter

 

[pete8314]

Putting sad things into perspective:

Elon Musk on Twitter

That's a very selective stat that Elon is using, as the demographic of a Tesla owner is very different to the demographic of a typical driver, in terms of income (ability to pay for alternative transport when needed), age (experienced drivers), the newness of the car and a whole host of other factors. for the stat quoted to be meaningful, it should be a like for like comparison, i.e. against people driving Mercedes E class and up, 2012 or newer. then I suspect the 4x will be almost completely neutralized.

 

[wdolson]

That's a very selective stat that Elon is using, as the demographic of a Tesla owner is very different to the demographic of a typical driver, in terms of income (ability to pay for alternative transport when needed), age (experienced drivers), the newness of the car and a whole host of other factors. for the stat quoted to be meaningful, it should be a like for like comparison, i.e. against people driving Mercedes E class and up, 2012 or newer. then I suspect the 4x will be almost completely neutralized.

Another important factor is the age of the fleet. Tesla's oldest cars are around 10 years old and the bulk of the fleet is still under warranty. More established car brands have cars going back decades on the road (though most of the oldest cars are well maintained and restored classics). Toyota still has a lot of 80s and 90s cars being used as daily drivers. Even if those cars were good for safety in their day, very few cars from the 1990s are going to compare favorably with even an average safety car today. Even if the car is in factory fresh condition.

And as far as driving without a license, it is a crime in the US, but the penalty varies from state to state and the reason for driving without a license. If you have a valid license and simply forgot it, it's a relative slap on the wrist, but someone who has lost their license due to reckless driving or a DUI who continues to drive may end up in jail and/or get fined if they continue to drive. Repeat offenders end up in jail in most states.

 

[Lasttoy]

I lived in Germany for 10 years. Drove a dTomaso Pantera GTS, at very high speeds, that was the 70s and 80s. Very few wreaks in town, but when they had a wreak on autobahn, it killed folks.
The wreaks in last few weeks were the car hitting a stationary object. The guy in Ca, kids in Fl now in Utah. When you hit a big fire truck at 60 mph, that is hell.the kids hit a wall. Hitting these at high speeds is hell, look at these cars. Totally destroyed. Speed plus stupidity is the cause. The kid had just gotten a speeding ticket for 112mph on 3 march. Why was he still driving?? Please help me here?
Nothing wrong with our cars a little common sense won't cure.
I am so tired of having to explain this everyday.

 

[Roger t]

I think Tesla should proactively build features to monitor driving behavior, or implement kid's mode. That would save lives and help the brand image.

 

[Hugh Mannity]

and in TX at least, there's a lot of uninsured drivers. Plus the use of mobile phones while driving is still not illegal in the majority of states.

uninsured drivers are a thing in Texas ? Wow .. That's not possible in any of the municipalities I've lived in. If you don't have valid insurance paperwork you don't get your license re-newed.

 

[ai4px]

<rant> Here in South Carolina, my UNinsured motorist coverage is higher than my liability coverage. The police do absolutely nothing with uninsured and unlicensed drivers. A family member rode around for 3 years on expired tags with no insurance... and lives across the street from a county cop. She eventually did try to go legit and the state wanted $1500 or so in fines. There is the problem... because the state doesn't impound their cars, it is cheaper to just keep ridin'. On the other hand, if she were denied access to her car because it was impounded, she'd get legit very quickly. We read all the time in the newspapers about 5th offense DUI or 3rd offense driving with suspended license. The laws are there, they aren't enforced. Drives me crazy.... ya know, if there's something the government should do it is protect people from the folly and malice of others. The politicians are all too quick to pass more laws rather than compel police (or courts) to enforce existing laws.<rant off>

 

[Valore]

First, our having twice as many deaths as Europe would be OK? Seriously? US is about 2x the EU deaths, but is that what we should aim for? Average? (though average would be much better than current).

Some quick stats (fatalities / 100k population):

U.S. 11.1

Switzerland 2.7
Sweden 2.8
Netherlands 3.1
UK 2.9
Denmark 3.4

I think driver's education plays a role too.
Here in Europe, theoretical and practical driving lessons are mandatory as well as a difficult exams.
In the US, you pay like $30 and you can practice driving with mum or dad, so no real "professional" teaching involved.

 

[jerry33]

uninsured drivers are a thing in Texas ? Wow .. That's not possible in any of the municipalities I've lived in. If you don't have valid insurance paperwork you don't get your license re-newed.

The issue is that the insurance can expire the day after the license is renewed. There are insurance companies that will sell one week's worth of insurance. At one time it was estimated that 25% of Texas drivers don't have insurance. That was some time ago, so I don't know how current it is.

 

[GatorGuy]

That's a very selective stat that Elon is using, as the demographic of a Tesla owner is very different to the demographic of a typical driver, in terms of income (ability to pay for alternative transport when needed), age (experienced drivers), the newness of the car and a whole host of other factors. for the stat quoted to be meaningful, it should be a like for like comparison, i.e. against people driving Mercedes E class and up, 2012 or newer. then I suspect the 4x will be almost completely neutralized.

You're right because 18 year old's don't drive Teslas 115 mph. And Tesla drivers don't do reckless things like climb out of the driver's seat...