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Fed up w/not getting new FSD. Lawsuit?

qdeathstar

Completely Serious
May 17, 2019
4,809
4,928
VB
My interpretation is that's only for driverless operation. Clearly none of the actually released features has reliability far in excess of human drivers so your interpretation doesn't make much sense. I agree though that might be what Tesla would try to argue if you take them to arbitration. I've never heard Tesla claim that the released stoplight and stop sign detection has reliability far in excess of human drivers.

It just says these features….. eg the ones listed. They aren’t released yet. They are in beta…
 
It just says these features….. eg the ones listed. They aren’t released yet. They are in beta…
Right but they did release the stoplight and stop sign feature so clearly the "coming later this year" is not contingent on reliability far in excess of human drivers. If Tesla meant to say that one of the future features was contingent on that and one of them wasn't they should not have put them in the same category.
 

AlanSubie4Life

Efficiency Obsessed Member
Oct 22, 2018
14,909
19,254
San Diego
Right but they did release the stoplight and stop sign feature so clearly the "coming later this year" is not contingent on reliability far in excess of human drivers. If Tesla meant to say that one of the future features was contingent on that and one of them wasn't they should not have put them in the same category.
Yeah that verbiage has never made sense, from the very beginning, and is presumably intentionally ambiguous.

It should say “activation and use of truly autonomous features are dependent on…”. Or something like that.

It makes little sense to require billions of miles of validation and achieve safety far in excess of human drivers, and then claim you can’t “activate and use” these features in a way that makes the vehicle autonomous. The only way “activation and use” makes sense with the rest of the statement is if it is referring to activating the autonomous portion of these features.

It’s all extremely hypothetical though, lol.
 
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I am not sure what you are basing this idea that all you have to do is swear an oath that you wouldn't have bought it and you would get a refund on the car. Can you cite the caselaw?
I didn't say that if you swear under oath, you will automatically get a refund on the car (although I guess I can see how you can construe my post as saying such). My point was/is that it would be up to the trier of fact to determine the credibility of the individual who said they wouldn't have bought a Tesla if they had known there would be a significant delay in getting FSD. That (credibility) determination can be based on the testimony of the individual. I could cite case law, but it is a fundamental tenet of jurisprudence.

You don't testify in front of a jury in a class action case. And you don't take anything to court just over the price of a car. The legal fees will be more than the price of the car.
Not sure I understand your point about testifying in front of a jury in a class action. Are you saying that class action cases don't have juries? (If so, then that is incorrect - as juries can hear class actions). Or, are you saying that class representatives don't testify in front of a jury in class action cases? (If so, then that is also incorrect as class representatives do testify at trial.)

Lastly, people routinely file disputes pertaining to the sale of a car as it isn't a given (by any means) that the legal fees will exceed the price of the car.
 

bradtem

Robocar consultant
Dec 18, 2018
932
1,063
Sunnyvale, CA
I didn't say that if you swear under oath, you will automatically get a refund on the car (although I guess I can see how you can construe my post as saying such). My point was/is that it would be up to the trier of fact to determine the credibility of the individual who said they wouldn't have bought a Tesla if they had known there would be a significant delay in getting FSD. That (credibility) determination can be based on the testimony of the individual. I could cite case law, but it is a fundamental tenet of jurisprudence.


Not sure I understand your point about testifying in front of a jury in a class action. Are you saying that class action cases don't have juries? (If so, then that is incorrect - as juries can hear class actions). Or, are you saying that class representatives don't testify in front of a jury in class action cases? (If so, then that is also incorrect as class representatives do testify at trial.)

Lastly, people routinely file disputes pertaining to the sale of a car as it isn't a given (by any means) that the legal fees will exceed the price of the car.
Members of the class do not testify at all, jury or otherwise, though one sample member might testify.

Nonetheless I think this is highly unlikely. I don't think you're getting a refund for more than what you paid for FSD (plus interest) if it goes so far as for Tesla to be ordered by a court to give refunds. It's possible Tesla will voluntarily offer refunds under certain circumstances, and they would do it perhaps to preempt a lawsuit, so they can write the refunds on their own terms so that very few people actually request them. They have many options to use to sweeten the FSD pie so that the fans all stay in it, even though offered a refund. The $15K customers might be more likely to want the refund.

They will offer you:
  • Improved EAP features, including some not in the EAP pack you can buy. I can think of a ton of these they could do.
  • Ability to transfer your FSD to your next Tesla, or to even clone it to a 2nd Tesla you have (no risk, if you were thinking of a refund, you would not be buying it again for the 2nd Tesla.)
  • Early access programs
  • Personal tour of Tesla factory, banquet with Elon
  • Special badging or other features visible to others as you drive by
And much more. Only a few would refund.
 
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Members of the class do not testify at all, jury or otherwise, though one sample member might testify.
Just curious as to whether you have ever litigated a class action as an attorney in the United States? Because named class representatives do testify at depositions and, if it goes as far as trial (which is rare) often testify at trial.
I don't think you're getting a refund for more than what you paid for FSD (plus interest) if it goes so far as for Tesla to be ordered by a court to give refunds.
Courts don't "order" parties to give refunds (or pay money) unless there has been a trial and a finding of liability as determined by the fact finder (which is usually a jury the rare instances in which a class action goes to trial).

It's possible Tesla will voluntarily offer refunds under certain circumstances, and they would do it perhaps to preempt a lawsuit, so they can write the refunds on their own terms so that very few people actually request them.
If a class action is filed, Tesla isn't going to voluntarily offer refunds. Assuming the case isn't relegated to arbitration, Tesla will defend the case in an effort to prevent class certification. If the class is certified, then that is when Tesla would most likely offer a settlement. At that point, ALL class members would be entitled to partake in the settlement according to the terms negotiated by the parties. In fact, all FSD purchasers who fell within the scope of the class action would automatically be included in the settlement (unless they specifically opted out of the class by the specified date).
They will offer you:
  • Improved EAP features, including some not in the EAP pack you can buy. I can think of a ton of these they could do.
  • Ability to transfer your FSD to your next Tesla, or to even clone it to a 2nd Tesla you have (no risk, if you were thinking of a refund, you would not be buying it again for the 2nd Tesla.)
  • Early access programs
  • Personal tour of Tesla factory, banquet with Elon
  • Special badging or other features visible to others as you drive by
And much more. Only a few would refund.
None of this would be included in a class action settlement. The class settlement would most likely be for a dollar figure equivalent to a refund (perhaps, but not definitively, provided in the form of a coupon towards a future FSD purchase).

Again, I don't know if you have actually litigated class actions as an attorney in the United States. (Based on the misinformation in your posts, I am inclined to believe you have not.) However, regardless, the process as I have described it, is representative (pun unintended) of the manner in which class actions work.
 
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bradtem

Robocar consultant
Dec 18, 2018
932
1,063
Sunnyvale, CA
Just curious as to whether you have ever litigated a class action as an attorney in the United States? Because named class representatives do testify at depositions and, if it goes as far as trial (which is rare) often testify at trial.

Courts don't "order" parties to give refunds (or pay money) unless there has been a trial and a finding of liability as determined by the fact finder (which is usually a jury the rare instances in which a class action goes to trial).


If a class action is filed, Tesla isn't going to voluntarily offer refunds. Assuming the case isn't relegated to arbitration, Tesla will defend the case in an effort to prevent class certification. If the class is certified, then that is when Tesla would most likely offer a settlement. At that point, ALL class members would be entitled to partake in the settlement according to the terms negotiated by the parties. In fact, all FSD purchasers who fell within the scope of the class action would automatically be included in the settlement (unless they specifically opted out of the class by the specified date).

None of this would be included in a class action settlement. The class settlement would most likely be for a dollar figure equivalent to a refund (perhaps, but not definitively, provided in the form of a coupon towards a future FSD purchase).

Again, I don't know if you have actually litigated class actions as an attorney in the United States. (Based on the misinformation in your posts, I am inclined to believe you have not.) However, regardless, the process as I have described it, is representative (pun unintended) of the manner in which class actions work.
Our team only litigated one major class action, it's not what we normally did, but the word "one" above was a brain fart. I meant to say that some class members will testify, not one. I am not a laywer, but was chairman of a legal foundation -- which as I said almost never uses class action in its work.

I would be very skeptical in the remedy being a coupon towards a future FSD purchase, if the cause of complaint was that FSD never delivered on its promises. Members of that class would not be able to use such a coupon. (Not that some courts don't award useless coupons, they certainly do.)

This would be unusual because the alleged harm, "I bought FSD based on promises and they were never delivered on" is hard to determine as a matter of fact. In this very board there is much debate over what the promises were, when they need to be delivered on, and what needs to be done.
 
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Did they?

I thought that even the basic autopilot is still in beta.

I recall, even the windshield wipers are still in beta...

(I do not have a Tesla any more, so cannot check myself)
True, everything is still in beta, even the safety score necessary to get FSD beta is still in beta.
I'm not sure what that has to do with these facts:
  • "automatic driving on city streets" coming this year" in 2020
  • purchased "automatic driving on city streets" in 2020
  • it's currently 2022
  • claimant does not have "automatic driving on city streets"
Seems like a pretty clear cut case for arbitration to me.
 
True, everything is still in beta, even the safety score necessary to get FSD beta is still in beta.
I'm not sure what that has to do with these facts:
  • "automatic driving on city streets" coming this year" in 2020
  • purchased "automatic driving on city streets" in 2020
  • it's currently 2022
  • claimant does not have "automatic driving on city streets"
Seems like a pretty clear cut case for arbitration to me.
My point was the opposite: If Tesla could argue that FSD buyers will get the feature as soon as it is ready (as in not beta), they would effectively be given a way out of ever delivering anything. Thus this "you'll get it when it is ready" argument just should not hold.

Tesla absolutely should be on hook for the promises they given for FSD. For some early buyers (like me) those promises were L5. For some others those were "navigate on city streets" by the end of the year when the purchase was made.
 
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My point was the opposite: If Tesla could argue that FSD buyers will get the feature as soon as it is ready (as in not beta), they would effectively be given a way out of ever delivering anything. Thus this "you'll get it when it is ready" argument just should not hold.

Tesla absolutely should be on hook for the promises they given for FSD. For some early buyers (like me) those promises were L5. For some others those were "navigate on city streets" by the end of the year when the purchase was made.
What really matters is what you could convince a judge and jury. Tesla's advertising is misleading at best. I'm a tesla fanboy just waited 471 days for a refreshed X after my Y and even without FSD (had it on the Y waiting for the X) it's an amazing car and I love it. That being said Tesla does have it in writing with a timeline and they didn't meet that timeline. What the damages are would be determined by a court/jury. I think if someone class actioned they would win but don't think the payout would be worth it to anyone but the lawyers.
 
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bradtem

Robocar consultant
Dec 18, 2018
932
1,063
Sunnyvale, CA
What really matters is what you could convince a judge and jury. Tesla's advertising is misleading at best. I'm a tesla fanboy just waited 471 days for a refreshed X after my Y and even without FSD (had it on the Y waiting for the X) it's an amazing car and I love it. That being said Tesla does have it in writing with a timeline and they didn't meet that timeline. What the damages are would be determined by a court/jury. I think if someone class actioned they would win but don't think the payout would be worth it to anyone but the lawyers.
Damages? Is there a history of a consumer software package shipping later than planned where a consumer won damages? You should get your money back if you ask. But damages?
 
This would be unusual because the alleged harm, "I bought FSD based on promises and they were never delivered on" is hard to determine as a matter of fact. In this very board there is much debate over what the promises were, when they need to be delivered on, and what needs to be done.
This goes to my skepticism about how viable a class action is - at least one that will encompass the majority of members who post here. Different assertions on the purchase site at different times, coupled with Elon's Twitter promises complicate legal theories. (I don't know the specific timeline but I know the website FSD language when purchasing has changed on multiple occasions.)

I agree with you that a cash payout would be better (and more logical) than a coupon towards a future purchase. Unfortunately, I can see a dynamic where a class opts for a significant discount in FSD price on a future Tesla (via coupon) instead of taking considerably less cash "today."
 
Damages? Is there a history of a consumer software package shipping later than planned where a consumer won damages? You should get your money back if you ask. But damages?
When you bought the car it had inherent value due to the promise of a feature with a timeline. This is far beyond reasonable and I would almost guarantee you could be awarded damages for the value you paid for FSD and potentially lost value of the car for not having features originally sold. When you get your money back in court that is damages. Doesn't mean the car is damaged but that's what you are suing for.

Also yes or in the case referenced providing subpar product. This is pretty much the same. You are assuming a jury would give infinite time for a feature to be released/distributed but when there was an expectation of a timeline that isn't complete it's a problem.


Imagine you hire a guy to remodel your house, he advertises "all remodels done within a year!" and 6 years later it isn't done. Think he can go on forever?
 
Many people here are fed up with how Tesla has treated them in failing to resolve some particular issue. Why not stop waiting for the problem to resolve itself and take legal action to actually resolve the matter?

(Speaking as someone who did take legal action and settled the disagreements I had with Tesla. Unable to discuss details unfortunately.)
 

bradtem

Robocar consultant
Dec 18, 2018
932
1,063
Sunnyvale, CA
When you bought the car it had inherent value due to the promise of a feature with a timeline. This is far beyond reasonable and I would almost guarantee you could be awarded damages for the value you paid for FSD and potentially lost value of the car for not having features originally sold. When you get your money back in court that is damages. Doesn't mean the car is damaged but that's what you are suing for.
Can you give some examples of this?

We're talking software here. You bought a computer. The vendor says, "we're writing this great software for it, and we plan to ship it in the future. We can't say exactly when, but we'll let you buy it in advance and give it to you when it ships."
Now frankly I am not sure I have ever seen that, so there won't be much precedent. Certainly if you didn't pre-pay for the software it would be like thousands of other software packages that were late or never shipped.

That they took your money in advance opens up some new avenues.

This is moot, however. Right now Tesla would probably be happy to buy back people's cars from them for a refund, since used Teslas are selling for more than new ones. That won't last forever of course.
 
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Can you give some examples of this?

We're talking software here. You bought a computer. The vendor says, "we're writing this great software for it, and we plan to ship it in the future. We can't say exactly when, but we'll let you buy it in advance and give it to you when it ships."
Now frankly I am not sure I have ever seen that, so there won't be much precedent. Certainly if you didn't pre-pay for the software it would be like thousands of other software packages that were late or never shipped.

That they took your money in advance opens up some new avenues.

This is moot, however. Right now Tesla would probably be happy to buy back people's cars from them for a refund, since used Teslas are selling for more than new ones. That won't last forever of course.
I edited my post above but here is the link, yes this happened.

Also note Tesla did give dates many times and those dates were failed to be delivered. Elon has many times advertised it's full release by end of x year. He is the CEO his word can be counted on by a consumer. Even if he doesn't actually know. So yes I do truly believe someone could win a class action against Tesla and be awarded damages in court. You prepaid for something with an expected delivery date not open ended as you stated.
 
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Supcom

Active Member
Oct 3, 2021
1,388
2,366
Texas
Many people here are fed up with how Tesla has treated them in failing to resolve some particular issue. Why not stop waiting for the problem to resolve itself and take legal action to actually resolve the matter?

(Speaking as someone who did take legal action and settled the disagreements I had with Tesla. Unable to discuss details unfortunately.)
Most are too lazy to take action for themselves.
 

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