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Fed up with supercharging, going back to ICE

arcus

Active Member
Aug 11, 2017
1,301
958
Denton, TX
Superchargers were developed to reduce range anxiety for long distance travel. Idea was that most owners would charge up, in their garage overnight, and that charge would last them all day. Only need to Supercharge when away from your home base.
Agree. Everyone using local superchargers should read and acknowledge this. Be courteous to one another!
 

Evthusiast

Member
Nov 3, 2017
48
72
California
The only thing clogging up chargers in California are Tesloop idiots. Cant wait till they go out of business. I always tell folks to not use them. I talked to a driver in detail and he said they are "proud" of the fact that they get their energy for free from Tesla. Meanwhile blocking access to folks that actually need a charge for a road trip. Yes its not their fault as Tesla did not think ahead re: commercial usage of superchargers. But still frustrating to see them charging and cleaning their cars for the next client.
 
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TaoJones

Beyond Driven
Nov 10, 2014
3,064
2,857
The Americas
To be honest, even with a queue like that, you'd still be outta there in about 15-20 minutes. Most likely faster than any Supercharging stop. Definitely faster if one needed to Supercharge nearly to full from empty.

Actually...

In the years B.T. (Before I owned a Tesla), once a week I would get gas at the Costco after work. The line was about as you see since the pumps shut off at 2030 weeknights. Took 25 minutes give or take 5 minutes. And that’s if the pumps were not slow.

A.T. (yes, after Tesla), I turn at the same intersection but the other direction to a SC once a week when in town (yes, in-town charging efficiency can easily be ~40% worse than point to point highway SC charging). I plug in. It takes an hour or so at that SC to get a full charge as it is not the fastest due occasionally to utility supply problems (a known issue). I either go inside the host property and have an excellent spinach salad and/or I use their WiFi to get work done and/or I return calls/emails or I’ve been known to take a nap. In any case, there’s less to do when I get home.

All of which is far more productive time than was waiting in line, breathing fumes, and getting gas at Costco for a half-hour, which is where I typically got gas because I got 4% off for using their credit card, and since the car required premium gas, it added up pretty quick.
 

TaoJones

Beyond Driven
Nov 10, 2014
3,064
2,857
The Americas
Agree. Everyone using local superchargers should read and acknowledge this. Be courteous to one another!

Except “Uncle” Paul evidently continues to ignore the reality that Tesla has welcomed non-garaged owners since Day 1, instead choosing to lump all “locals” together. Suffice it to say that “locals” as some amorphous group are not the problem. You can’t tell a garaged local from a non-garaged local but that doesn’t stop the lazy and poorly-aimed/prioritized persecution - and laughably it’s mostly by people who either don’t own Teslas or don’t use SCs regularly if ever or both. I’m all for academic exercises but in the real world, facts matter.

There are also far more licensed livery than there are Tesloop vehicles and there are *far* more Uber/Lyft driver’s than licensed livery. Tesla has a policy in place for livery now, and Tesloop’s grandfathered vehicles will wear out soon enough, if for no other reason than insurance companies may balk at insuring them past a certain mileage threshold.

The #1 problem at SCs is ICEing by our own. Also discussed as recently as yesterday in this very thread. A growing concern is SC maintenance - addressed in another thread as well.

In short, it would be helpful to understand the problem completely before throwing some simplistic solution at “locals” - especially in SoCal, where that concept can cover many miles and multiple counties.

Yes, courtesy is always a good thing, and yes, most of the network is unclogged. In other news, the sky is still somewhat blue - even here *chuckle*.
 
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skitown

Member
Dec 28, 2015
869
2,255
Central Idaho, U.S.A, Earth
Actually...

In the years B.T. (Before I owned a Tesla), once a week I would get gas at the Costco after work. The line was about as you see since the pumps shut off at 2030 weeknights. Took 25 minutes give or take 5 minutes. And that’s if the pumps were not slow.

A.T. (yes, after Tesla), I turn at the same intersection but the other direction to a SC once a week when in town (yes, in-town charging efficiency can easily be ~40% worse than point to point highway SC charging). I plug in. It takes an hour or so at that SC to get a full charge as it is not the fastest due occasionally to utility supply problems (a known issue). I either go inside the host property and have an excellent spinach salad and/or I use their WiFi to get work done and/or I return calls/emails or I’ve been known to take a nap. In any case, there’s less to do when I get home.

All of which is far more productive time than was waiting in line, breathing fumes, and getting gas at Costco for a half-hour, which is where I typically got gas because I got 4% off for using their credit card, and since the car required premium gas, it added up pretty quick.

Totally agree. The time spent, even if similar in duration or longer is a totally different experience. It's not even the same sport.
 
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tpham07

Active Member
Mar 21, 2017
1,965
2,202
Rhode Island
I'm confused. the OP had some assholes at a supercharger he uses 2-3x a year that makes him want to sell his car and go back to gasoline? cool.

Just think its odd for someone to pick a car based on the charging station experience he/she uses 2-3 times a year.
 
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rms57

Member
Dec 23, 2017
42
48
Maryland
That's part of the reason there are penalties now for staying plugged in when the stations are busy. I'm sure they'll soon be penalizing folks for simply parking in the stalls without charging. It's still a work in progress, but it sure beats pumping gas. We have an ICE and an EV. I never realized how much of a burden stopping out of your way to pump gas was on the way home until recently. Truly made me appreciate the flexibility of an EV.
 
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Rocky_H

Well-Known Member
Feb 19, 2015
6,108
7,099
Boise, ID
So.... @dark , you actually waited right there directly in front of the cars that were charging? And then somebody came from somewhere else and said they were waiting there first? Yeeeeah, I'm about 95% sure you just didn't look around to find the ad-hock waiting line, and that guy actually was there before you, and you were the one who cut in line.

Anyway, I kind of consider this "phase 3" of the Supercharger build-out, as far as the U.S. is concerned. In the beginning, there were the Californian Superchargers. The Californians were well-pleased with their bounty and their choices of which stations to use. But lo, the masses in flyover country did wail and gnash their teeth at the persecution of having none. And verily, Tesla relented and connected the interstate highways therein, granting an excess of capacity that would serve for many years to come. And the flyover masses were content. But alas, the wailing and gnashing of teeth had now moved into the undefended regions of the Socalites and the Norcalites, and the whining overflowed onto the various fora. Capacity was sorely in need, but these things take time, and patience was a scarce virtue.

All right, enough with the passages from the Book of Supercharging. Yeah, they got the middle of the country built, and when they get the 6 or 8 stall location built in an area like Hays Kansas, where people have still never seen a Tesla, that's going to have things well covered for the next 5-10 years. They won't need to keep building there. But yes, they are having to circle back around to add a lot more capacity to the first coast. I just did a 5,332 mile trip in February, from Idaho, across I-70 to Ohio/Michigan, and then back along the southern route in OK, TX, and NM. I used 28 Supercharger sites and never saw a full one. At only one location did I see more than 1 other car. So they did need to get the middle of the country sorted, but the focus is back on Cali now. Sorry they weren't quite ahead of this crowding in time.
 

Blup85

Member
Oct 26, 2016
789
649
Chico
I live in rural N Cal, I use superchargers 5-10 times a year. Ncal has always been awesome. I tried to use a couple of Suc in S Cal when the fam went to DisneyLand and it was pointless..so I feel for you guys down there (at a Costco parking lot)
Question: Has there been anyone who has actually done a random pole at superchargers in these impacted areas to figure out if these are true leaches who are opportunity charging and don't "really" need to charge or just a high Tesla Density? I want to see some data.
 

Merrill

Merrill
Jan 23, 2013
3,762
1,292
Sonoma, California
Had my Model S for 5 years and never had this experience, you will always find idiots driving on the road Tesla’s or otherwise. I charge mostly at home and will never go back to an ICE. If you do you are just supporting something worse in the way of the petroleum cartel.
 

Blu Angel

Member
Oct 7, 2016
280
259
Mississauga, ON, Canada
I owner a model S since 2014, then switched to X in 2017. The number of superchargering station have quadrupled, but at the same time, those smaller stations are overly clouded.

I don’t use supercharger that much, maybe 2 to 3 times year. Never had good experience. Today, I needed about 20miles of charge to get home, stopped at a station by the mall, most teslas are not even charging

I am sick of these Tesla assholes. Going back to ICE
Dark,
It's been 4 years since you've been a regular ICE driver.

Things you may have forgotten:
Smelly & dirty petrol stations with irrational gasoline prices
Remember which side of your vehicle has the gas hole.
Getting a lung full of carcinogenic fumes
Washing your windows with empty or dirty water containers
Queuing up to pay for gasoline whilst others are purchasing chips, cigarettes and other necessities


I think OP has a much bigger problem than issues at a supercharger, emotional much?

I had to wait for the first time at a supercharger yesterday, pulled into San Mateo in Bay Area and all 8-10 stalls were full. They did have an attendant/vallet that was parking/moving cars for those that wanted to go shop. We got a spot within 3 minutes and I sat in car while family went into Whole Foods. I also left as soon as I had enough since there were 2-3 waiting.
.

There's may be some truth to this statement.
Dark does seem to be overly emotional for a Supercharger which he uses 3 times a year

Secondly, I sure Elon Musk is aware of this growing problem, especially with the growing TM3 fleet.
and Tesla will respond in kind.
There's no way Elon will let this problem grow!

Superchargers were developed to reduce range anxiety for long distance travel. Idea was that most owners would charge up, in their garage overnight, and that charge would last them all day. Only need to Supercharge when away from your home base.

I believe it is the FREE aspect that is causing this congestion. Tesla has now begun to bill customers for charging at Superchargers. They are also billing congestion fees if people daudle long after their cars are fully charged. This should go a long way to reduce the congestion.

I believe that congestion is only a problem at less than 1% of the locations. Mostly the Urban areas where it is convenient to get the FREE juice. Sometimes you will get congested on heavily traveled routes on holiday weekends or special events.This is also being addressed by the addition of hundreds more Supercharger stalls in needed areas.

I believe that there are currently many more electric travel chargers being installed that gas pumps. As the EV revolution takes place the charging will become ever more convenient.

Uncle Paul,
Superchargers were meant for long distance drivers and not the local Tesla owners to stop for a quick top-up

Now, Tesla and Ionity and Electrify America are quickly adding more Superchargers & EV chargers.
I believe Tesla signed up to participate with Ionity EV Chargers, especially in California
This is the result of that 2 Billion dollar penalty that VW is paying and using to accelerate the adoption
of EV transportation

Electrify America unveils map of planned charging stations for its massive network

First look at Ionity’s latest ultra-fast EV charging station

First look at Ionity’s latest ultra-fast EV charging station
 
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TaoJones

Beyond Driven
Nov 10, 2014
3,064
2,857
The Americas
Superchargers we’re not meant for long distance drivers and not the local Tesla owners to stop for a quick top-up

Now, Tesla and Ionity are quickly adding more Superchargers & EV chargers.
I believe Tesla signed up to participate with Ionity EV Chargers, especially in California
This is the result of that 2 Billion dollar penalty that VW is paying and using to accelerate the adoption
of EV transportation

That’s not entirely accurate. First, Superchargers were (since at least 2014) and are to this day very much intended for the non-garaged and in particular for urban non-garaged owners. Yet those locals continue to be carelessly lumped in with garaged locals - usually by those who don’t even or rarely use Superchargers but somehow feel qualified to opine anyway about restricting the access of others. Sound familiar?

Moving on, per relatively recent Tesla policy, SCs are not intended for livery, nor for SC-clogging parking after charging is complete (see first attempt at idle fees).

At $0.26/kW in CA, combined with the efficiency hit from urban driving that can and does exceed 30%-40% with regularity, there is zero cost savings versus a decent gas car or hybrid. Clearly, those who can charge at home will charge at home.

For the rest, while it is nice that both major utilities (committed to a minimum of 12,500 L2 and L3 chargers) and the Dieselgate money (now down to 800M from 1.2B for California btw) will provide tens of thousands of chargers and the maintenance for those chargers statewide, deployment is moving at a glacial pace.

Interesting about the Ionity chargers. Hope that happens.

By the way a second time, to put $800M on context, that pays for 3,200 supercharger sites. Note that there are only ~ 500 in North America and ~1200 globally. It’s a shame that not a penny of Dieselgate money will go toward SCs. Hopefully a chunk does go toward fast charging clusters (see Baker). Right now, the best actual fast charging network belongs to Aerovironment - and those are only onesies coupled with a single L2 at each location.

Tesla can’t even inform drivers in a timely manner when an SC is impacted. That’s a far higher priority than the pipe dream of geofencing or checking property records or any other such silliness. Remember that impacted chargers account for 3% of the network at best and that most of the 10 busiest SCs in the world are in California. The rest of the continent is amused and opines when not affected. Same as it ever was.
Included supercharging is built into the S/X business model through about 1M vehicles, per Dr. Straubel a few years ago. And remember that today’s S/X, once sold, no longer qualify.

Enjoy it while it lasts, folks.
 

Graffi

Member
Apr 30, 2017
713
710
San Diego, CA
I owner a model S since 2014, then switched to X in 2017. The number of superchargering station have qouad tripled, but at the same time, those smaller stations are overly clouded.

I don’t use supercharger that much, maybe 2 to 3 times year. Never had good experience. Today, I needed about 20miles of charge to get home, stopped at a station by the mall, most teslas are not even charging.

I literally parked right in front of the chargers and waited a good 10 minutes, a driver even acknowledged me that he just needed to few more minutes before I can take his spot. no one was waiting in front of any charger except me.

A car pulled out and I pulled right in. An asshole came from the corner trying to take my spot, he left his car right in the middle of the road, walked out of his car, stood in front of my car and won’t let me pull all the way in . He told me he was here first and refused to talk to me. After few attempts to tell him I was here first, traffic already built up, and I saw another Tesla pulling out so I back out of the charger and took that spot.


I am sick of these Tesla assholes. Going back to ICE

I am happy to take that unwanted Model X off your hands for cheap. I am sure it will get a loving home.
 

ShockOnT

⚡️⚡️⚡️⚡️⚡️
Jun 26, 2016
3,337
3,033
Sydney
Supercharging is so stressful, there is no form of line like the gas station. If you arrive first, give the other driver a courtesy heads up.

I will just take my ICE next time to avoid using superchargering. Enough of this non sense human
I agree it is stressful that there’s no clear way to queue when the superchargers are full.
 

Blu Angel

Member
Oct 7, 2016
280
259
Mississauga, ON, Canada
That’s not entirely accurate. First, Superchargers were (since at least 2014) and are to this day very much intended for the non-garaged and in particular for urban non-garaged owners.

Moving on, per relatively recent Tesla policy, SCs are not intended for livery, nor for SC-clogging parking after charging is complete (see first attempt at idle fees).

At $0.26/kW in CA, combined with the efficiency hit from urban driving that can and does exceed 30%-40% with regularity, there is zero cost savings versus a decent gas car or hybrid. Clearly, those who can charge at home will charge at home.

For the rest, while it is nice that both major utilities (committed to a minimum of 12,500 L2 and L3 chargers) and the Dieselgate money (now down to 800M from 1.2B for California btw) will provide tens of thousands of chargers and the maintenance for those chargers statewide, deployment is moving at a glacial pace.

Interesting about the Ionity chargers. Hope that happens.

By the way a second time, to put $800M on context, that pays for 3,200 supercharger sites. Note that there are only ~ 500 in North America and ~1200 globally. It’s a shame that not a penny of Dieselgate money will go toward SCs. Hopefully a chunk does go toward fast charging clusters (see Baker). Right now, the best actual fast charging network belongs to Aerovironment - and those are only onesies coupled with a single L2 at each location.
Enjoy it while it lasts, folks.

TaoJones,
I thank you for enlightening me on the original SC policy.
Happy to see Tesla begin to address the SC abuses via the livery policy, SC fees (currently .26/kW)
and the ever expanding SC network

Fingers crossed that Tesla WILL partner with the Ionity EV network
 

bob_p

Active Member
Apr 5, 2012
3,664
2,790
Respectfully, TaoJones is incorrect about Tesla's original intentions for the Supercharger Network.

The original Model S marketing was "Free Long Distance Charging on the Supercharger Network", and Supercharging was an added cost option that could be configured with new vehicle orders.

Tesla likely had a financial model they developed assuming the use of superchargers for long distance driving, estimated how many chargers would be needed, and based the supercharger option cost not only on the cost of the hardware, but the fractional cost of the supercharger network for long distance driving - so they could cover the cost of the supercharger network out of the added cost when a customer added the supercharger option at purchase.

Like other features Tesla originally included as configurable options, Tesla then started bundling "Free Long Distance Charging" with new orders and stopped charging separately for the supercharging option.

While Tesla has never officially admitted this, it seems likely they made a simple assumption that owners would have access to overnight chargers - and the supercharger network would only be used for long distance driving. That's why they focused the initial supercharger network on the major highways between cities - and didn't start adding superchargers in the major cities until later.

And now that they've admitted they need to support non-garaged owners, they're starting to add more urban superchargers.

Though, it's still better if you can arrange overnight charging or charging at work during the day, and avoid relying on the superchargers.

One of the major benefits of having a long range EV with access to overnight charging - it saves the time from having to "refuel" your car. I don't miss having to get in line each week to get gas for our ICEs. Even though it only takes a few minutes to fill up a tank, it usually took 10 to 15 minutes to wait in line to get a pump. Adding in the driving time, recharging our Tesla cars overnight is likely saving us 15 to 30 minutes of "refueling" each week per car...
 
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