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Richg
Member
After staying quiet about the recent software upgrade that forces autopilot;etc to strictly follow the speed limits on non-freeway roads I have the following comments:
1). Many 'divided' roads that have speed limits of 45 or 50 MPH have the speed limit enforced. This causes me to be an impediment to traffic flow and certinally does not enhance the Tesla brand.
2). To go with the flow, I now have to not use autopilot which I feel greatly increases my chances of accidents.
3). Tesla, please reinstate the +5 MPH over posted speed on divided highways.
I live in Florida and my experience is that almost everyone drives +5 over the speed limit. It is unlawful to impead traffic flow. Ok, so how does this problem get resolved/
Rich
1). Many 'divided' roads that have speed limits of 45 or 50 MPH have the speed limit enforced. This causes me to be an impediment to traffic flow and certinally does not enhance the Tesla brand.
2). To go with the flow, I now have to not use autopilot which I feel greatly increases my chances of accidents.
3). Tesla, please reinstate the +5 MPH over posted speed on divided highways.
I live in Florida and my experience is that almost everyone drives +5 over the speed limit. It is unlawful to impead traffic flow. Ok, so how does this problem get resolved/
Rich
Why wouldn't it? Can't use AP, so he looses that additional 'backup' system to his driving. Hereby, not as safe.
Are the divided roads you are talking about also limited access roads (meaning on-ramps and off ramps)? If not, the system is doing what our current understanding of the release for AP1 hardware changed and appears to have been done because of the possibility of conflicting traffic with a significant difference in relative speed and thus closure rate.
Obviously none of us knows exactly what was done due to the lack of release notes, but Tesla has consistently said that AP software is really for use on divided, limited access roads. The fact it wasn't restricting what speed you could set it to on roads that didn't meet that category appears to have been something they have deliberately addressed in the latest release either due to system limitations or guidance from somewhere (be it the government, Elon, Tesla's legal counsel or someone else).
Would you feel safer if you could exceed the speed limit on these roads while using autopilot (thus keeping up with the flow of traffic) knowing that the system can't respond to a car pulling out in front of you or crossing across the road in time to prevent a collision? Your statement #3 about the chance of accidents might then change....
Ulmo
Active Member
2.50.185 (1,000 New Years Eve rollout per @elonmusk tweet) is driving assistance for Tesla Vision (hardware 2), and 4 have received it on TeslaFi, all in California. Any week now I expect something to be reported: halted rollout, another version, or someone experiencing the new Tesla Vision experience. I hope it is interesting reading.
The software update was pushed to my Tesla this morning. Tried to engage auto steer on the freeway during traffic jam in LA and it said camera calibrating unable to initiate. Continued on for another 30 minutes and tried again but got the same message. Wondering how long it will take to become operational.
@HankLloydRight question re: ev-fw.com
My previous car (P85D) has about 25 entries for firmware updates on EV-FW.com. I have added my current car. Should I delete the former car (and thus lose all the entries which I assume would be eliminated from the overall stats at that point)? If I don't delete it, what happens if someone else gets it (via CPO or otherwise) - will they then be able to enter the VIN and update FW records if it still exists under my name/account?
Thanks,
Mike
My previous car (P85D) has about 25 entries for firmware updates on EV-FW.com. I have added my current car. Should I delete the former car (and thus lose all the entries which I assume would be eliminated from the overall stats at that point)? If I don't delete it, what happens if someone else gets it (via CPO or otherwise) - will they then be able to enter the VIN and update FW records if it still exists under my name/account?
Thanks,
Mike
LargeHamCollider
Battery cells != scalable
4-5 hours has been reported in the comments section here to be the time required for camera calibration.
Thanks! Sorry, broke rule number one of forum threads by not looking back at other posts for my answer. Gonna try again tomorrow morning.
WannabeOwner
Well-Known Member
Sorry if this has been discussed. My car is doing 60 MPH on non-divided roads where no limit is set (which is the UK limit). I thought that the [recently newly imposed] limit that has been discussed was 45 MPH, but maybe I have mis-remembered? (Version 2.50.114). I don't normally use AP on the local, rural, roads, so I didn't test this at the time that the enforced reduced AP speed was first raised, so i don't have a comparison point.
It slows down for village speed limits (but not until I have entered the limit, which is both stupid (assuming the limit is known by GPS rather than visual recognition) as the car behind me is confused - people who obey the limits will slow down prior to the limit, or as they enter it, not by fairly heavy braking after entering - and it speeds back up again when I come out of the limit (which I'm not sure I like - no way of knowing what the road conditions are when exiting the limit, and I might not be expecting it - I think a touch-of-accelerator to resume or similar "signal" would be better). Also, it is quite some time [I should really make some measurements instead of impresice phrases!] after exiting the limit before the speed is re-adjusted. The limit symbol disappears pretty much the moment that I exit the speed limit, but nothing appears in its place for a while (and limited speed is maintained) and then the national speed limit (60 MPG for rural roads) appears and the car speeds up. I think that is also confusing for the car behind me as it doesn't reflect normal, manual, driving behaviour - the car behind might pull out to overtake, assuming I am a "Sunday Driver", and then I'll look like a complete jerk as my car accelerates to the speed limit!
It slows down for village speed limits (but not until I have entered the limit, which is both stupid (assuming the limit is known by GPS rather than visual recognition) as the car behind me is confused - people who obey the limits will slow down prior to the limit, or as they enter it, not by fairly heavy braking after entering - and it speeds back up again when I come out of the limit (which I'm not sure I like - no way of knowing what the road conditions are when exiting the limit, and I might not be expecting it - I think a touch-of-accelerator to resume or similar "signal" would be better). Also, it is quite some time [I should really make some measurements instead of impresice phrases!] after exiting the limit before the speed is re-adjusted. The limit symbol disappears pretty much the moment that I exit the speed limit, but nothing appears in its place for a while (and limited speed is maintained) and then the national speed limit (60 MPG for rural roads) appears and the car speeds up. I think that is also confusing for the car behind me as it doesn't reflect normal, manual, driving behaviour - the car behind might pull out to overtake, assuming I am a "Sunday Driver", and then I'll look like a complete jerk as my car accelerates to the speed limit!
I drove 90 minutes for 80 miles (camera calibrating the whole trip). Shut the car off, came back a few hours later and it was activated.
HankLloydRight
No Roads
Yeah, don't delete your car, that will delete all the update records. Let me think of a solution to that when I get back and update the app for AP2.0.
Interesting point. But that goes back to confidence level. If the hardware couldn't cope with cross-traffic pulling out in front at any speed, why allow it to be enabled as such? In other words, the car would fail to brake if you were going 45mph and a semi pulled across, as well as 85mph and a semi pulled across. Tesla is every bit the kind of company (so is Apple) that would change software behavior to inconvenience the consumer so as to discouraged use. We have tons of evidence to that in the form of the AP nags when confidence level is already high on divided highways, locked onto both lane markers and a vehicle in front. Tesla wants our hands on the wheel so that when AP fails, we can take over and so they can claim they are not at fault since they warned us (rightfully so with this level of AP).
If I knew that traffic flow was doing 55mph in a 45mph and AP wouldn't keep up because of the hard speed limit limit, then guess what, I wouldn't use it. As a result, I automatically become less of a liability for AP and less of a danger to myself.
Richg
Member
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The divided roads are not freeways, let's call them 3-4 lane major arteries with speed limits of 45-55 mph. There is limited access primarily at major intersections.
Going the speed limit is a hazard and rightfully angers many of the other drivers who are trying to go with the not]Emil traffic flow of 5 mph over the posted limit. Certinally this is not good PR for Tesla.
Rich
jgs
Active Member
Reading the last few days' postings reminds me that the real problem is the absurdity of the way we set and use speed limits, at least in the U.S.. A law that's intended to be broken as a matter of course. Awesome. As a bonus, the "everyone knows the real speed limit is" speed varies by locale.
Of course, Tesla is in no position to singlehandedly fix this problem. But I can see how it puts them between a rock and a hard place.
Of course, Tesla is in no position to singlehandedly fix this problem. But I can see how it puts them between a rock and a hard place.
this is all conjecture because we don't have release notes or any details. Let me lay out my theory for the current state of AP1 software (which I think is reasonable and consistent with work I've done with automated control systems in aviation and the military):
Two use cases:
1. a limited access/divided road (what we tend to call an expressway). -- AP will let you set a speed up to 18 mph (might be 15 but I recall someone saying the limitation was 18) over the speed limit but NOT 90 mph or over. Basically this is the same functionality AP users have had before. In this scenario, the expectation is that traffic that suddenly moves into the lane in front of the car is (a) going the same direction as the car and (b) at about the same speed (relatively slow closure or opening rate). The closure/opening rate is likely to be no more than about a 20-25 mph (assuming you were doing 80 in a 55 and the car that merged in front of you was doing 55). With the existing sensor range (radar, ultrasonic and visual) the car can detect an object in time to take action to avoid the collision by decelerating (possibly to a complete stop if necessary).
2. a non-limited access/non-divided road. For the purpose of this example, let's assume that this is a "country highway" -- 2 lanes in each direction and a speed limit of 55 mph. There are cross streets which intersect the highway and the cross traffic has a stop sign. In this scenario, our worst case is that a car is crossing the highway and suddenly does so in front of us. If we are doing the speed limit, we now have 55mph of closure rate (all of his speed is perpendicular to our speed vector). This means that (because detection range of the sensor suite is the same in both use cases) the car has about 1/2 as much time to react to the threat traffic and initiate deceleration to prevent the collision.
At this point, reports indicate that the new AP1 software will only let you drive the speed limit in use case #2, so the question we have to ask is: "Why are they limiting autopilot to the speed limit in use case 2, but allowing us to speed up to just shy of 20 mph faster than the speed limit in use case 1." The sensor suite is the same. The car's capabilities are the same. What has changed between the two use cases? My answer, the environment and the potential for relatively greater closure rates (which equal decreased reaction/braking time).
It may be (and this is again, just conjecture) that in analyzing the Florida crash, the Tesla software team discovered a corner case -- something on the edge of the probability map where an autopilot car can encounter a closure rate much greater than previously anticipated. As a result, the decision was made to impose the speed limit limitation which decreases the potential max closure rate to one which the system is capable of responding to in time.
My hope would be that this limitation (non-divided/non-limited access roads) may be adjusted as they gather more data and they raise it up to something like 10 mph over the speed limit based on owner feedback. Tesla's corporate culture is to push the edge of the envelope and accept more risk/liability than most companies so I don't think the leadership would be against it. If they refuse to do so, that would indicate to me that either (a) they have been told that the system MUST follow the speed limit in this case by regulatory authorities or (b) they have determined that exceeding the speed limit in this case creates a potential scenario beyond the car's limit to address.
Here's an aviation example -- Almost all airplanes have the ability to roll to 90 degrees of bank for a very tight turn. Now based on wing loading, speed and other factors, the plane may or may not be able to keep flying in that condition for a 360 degree turn. So from a mechanical, aerodynamic and structural perspective, let's assume the plane can do this if flown by a competent pilot. Even the best autopilots (3 axis, digital units) have limitations on how much roll (bank angle) they will put a plane into. Somewhere around 20 degrees of bank angle is a normal maximum. This is far less than what the plane is capable of safely doing when operated by a human? Why is this limitation in place? The answer is because the autopilot is designed to operate right in the center of the performance envelope, not out at the edges. Taking this back to our use case #2 above, it may be that Tesla's engineers have determined that greater than 55 mph of relative closure rate pushes out to the edge and exceeds the autopilot's performance envelope.
Note this is all conjecture on my part, but we have one other bit of data that appears to support it -- the reports of AP cars suddenly slowing from their setting to 50 mph on a divided/limited access highway. My theory (and I think others support it) is that this slowing is being triggered by what the autopilot thinks is a stopped vehicle in the adjacent lane (even thought it as apparently currently also triggering on bridge supports and some highway signs). What's of interest is that all reports indicate the AP slows the car to 50 mph -- and the 50 mph number is consistent. Why is that relevant to our use case #1 above? 50 mph is at or just below our maximum closure rate in use case #2 above.
Again -- all conjecture but it is the best scenario I can think of that explains all the behavior users are reporting in the latest software release. I may be 100% wrong when Tesla ultimately explains what changes were made and why (if they ever do), but I think this theory is more likely than not to be pretty close to the truth....
Two use cases:
1. a limited access/divided road (what we tend to call an expressway). -- AP will let you set a speed up to 18 mph (might be 15 but I recall someone saying the limitation was 18) over the speed limit but NOT 90 mph or over. Basically this is the same functionality AP users have had before. In this scenario, the expectation is that traffic that suddenly moves into the lane in front of the car is (a) going the same direction as the car and (b) at about the same speed (relatively slow closure or opening rate). The closure/opening rate is likely to be no more than about a 20-25 mph (assuming you were doing 80 in a 55 and the car that merged in front of you was doing 55). With the existing sensor range (radar, ultrasonic and visual) the car can detect an object in time to take action to avoid the collision by decelerating (possibly to a complete stop if necessary).
2. a non-limited access/non-divided road. For the purpose of this example, let's assume that this is a "country highway" -- 2 lanes in each direction and a speed limit of 55 mph. There are cross streets which intersect the highway and the cross traffic has a stop sign. In this scenario, our worst case is that a car is crossing the highway and suddenly does so in front of us. If we are doing the speed limit, we now have 55mph of closure rate (all of his speed is perpendicular to our speed vector). This means that (because detection range of the sensor suite is the same in both use cases) the car has about 1/2 as much time to react to the threat traffic and initiate deceleration to prevent the collision.
At this point, reports indicate that the new AP1 software will only let you drive the speed limit in use case #2, so the question we have to ask is: "Why are they limiting autopilot to the speed limit in use case 2, but allowing us to speed up to just shy of 20 mph faster than the speed limit in use case 1." The sensor suite is the same. The car's capabilities are the same. What has changed between the two use cases? My answer, the environment and the potential for relatively greater closure rates (which equal decreased reaction/braking time).
It may be (and this is again, just conjecture) that in analyzing the Florida crash, the Tesla software team discovered a corner case -- something on the edge of the probability map where an autopilot car can encounter a closure rate much greater than previously anticipated. As a result, the decision was made to impose the speed limit limitation which decreases the potential max closure rate to one which the system is capable of responding to in time.
My hope would be that this limitation (non-divided/non-limited access roads) may be adjusted as they gather more data and they raise it up to something like 10 mph over the speed limit based on owner feedback. Tesla's corporate culture is to push the edge of the envelope and accept more risk/liability than most companies so I don't think the leadership would be against it. If they refuse to do so, that would indicate to me that either (a) they have been told that the system MUST follow the speed limit in this case by regulatory authorities or (b) they have determined that exceeding the speed limit in this case creates a potential scenario beyond the car's limit to address.
Here's an aviation example -- Almost all airplanes have the ability to roll to 90 degrees of bank for a very tight turn. Now based on wing loading, speed and other factors, the plane may or may not be able to keep flying in that condition for a 360 degree turn. So from a mechanical, aerodynamic and structural perspective, let's assume the plane can do this if flown by a competent pilot. Even the best autopilots (3 axis, digital units) have limitations on how much roll (bank angle) they will put a plane into. Somewhere around 20 degrees of bank angle is a normal maximum. This is far less than what the plane is capable of safely doing when operated by a human? Why is this limitation in place? The answer is because the autopilot is designed to operate right in the center of the performance envelope, not out at the edges. Taking this back to our use case #2 above, it may be that Tesla's engineers have determined that greater than 55 mph of relative closure rate pushes out to the edge and exceeds the autopilot's performance envelope.
Note this is all conjecture on my part, but we have one other bit of data that appears to support it -- the reports of AP cars suddenly slowing from their setting to 50 mph on a divided/limited access highway. My theory (and I think others support it) is that this slowing is being triggered by what the autopilot thinks is a stopped vehicle in the adjacent lane (even thought it as apparently currently also triggering on bridge supports and some highway signs). What's of interest is that all reports indicate the AP slows the car to 50 mph -- and the 50 mph number is consistent. Why is that relevant to our use case #1 above? 50 mph is at or just below our maximum closure rate in use case #2 above.
Again -- all conjecture but it is the best scenario I can think of that explains all the behavior users are reporting in the latest software release. I may be 100% wrong when Tesla ultimately explains what changes were made and why (if they ever do), but I think this theory is more likely than not to be pretty close to the truth....
The roads you are calling major arteries are not considered limited access because they don't have on-ramps/off-ramps. Intersections are not defined as "limited access" roads by the Department of Transportation.
I agree that this change (holding to the speed limit) is pissing owners off and (to use your words) no good PR for Tesla, but I assume Tesla's leadership are rational decision makers who would not have done this (even knowing it would piss people off) unless there was a good reason for doing so. Where they have failed (badly) is in communicating what change was made and why. Personally I find that even if people disagree with a decision, if they are told what the decision is and why it was made they tend to be less pissed off. Alas, Elon (nor anyone else at Tesla) have asked my advice on how to communicate with their owners.
If you wanna be REALLY nuanced, in some states you may not even be breaking the law. For example, in California there is the Basic Speed Limit law (which defines a prima facie speed limit as the safe speed given the conditions and further defines the posted speed limit as a reference for the safe speed -- you do not automatically violate this law just by exceeding a posted speed limit), and the Maximum Speed Limit law (which says you may not exceed the posted 55, 65, or 70mph speed limit signs on freeways, and may not exceed 100mph under any circumstances). You may only be cited under one of the two vehicle code statutes. Obviously, where it is applicable, CHP will prefer citing you under the Maximum Speed Law.
This leaves a huge gap: Any speed limit sign in the city, and any highway speed limit sign that's not 55, 65, or 70 can only be cited under the basic speed limit, which is highly subjective. Unfortunately, driving erratically (e.g. fighting with AP's automatic slowdowns) may be presented in court as evidence that you are driving too fast for the conditions.
At any rate, yeah, speed limits and their legal significance varies greatly from state to state.
Cyclone
Cyclonic Member ((.oO))
For all these "only up to the speed limit" posts, is that only when use AutoSteer, or is this also when using TACC and manually steering?