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First L3 Self Driving Car - Audi A8 world premieres in Barcelona
- Thread starter Bladerskb
- Start date
I watched the video and as a German listened to the talking. Lots to be said about why people consider this as L3 or even L4 but I'd like to point out a different aspect.
There is a fundamental difference to Tesla that the Audi Engineer describes that makes it very different to Tesla and me not confident that they will succeed with their approach:
The Engineer in the car explained that they have a bunch of Engineers in different locations in Germany that fill a so call Situation Catalog. Its kind of a record for the car. Its a description and simulation how the car should react in every different situation on the street. What they try to accomplish is a simulate every situation possible and make the car react accordingly. He described the challenge to make sure every possible situation has been captured.
My take: You will never ever be able to describe every situation that you may have with that car on a street. Its just not realistic to assume that. In other words the car would not know what to do if a new situation appears that has not been thought through. Having said that I believe the Audis A8 is fundamentally less secure than the approach from Tesla and will be in the future. The approach makes me very uncomfortable going above L2 with Audi..
I am an Engineer myself and like Audi cars very much but have to admit to be disappointed to hear about that approach from Audis dev department.
There is a fundamental difference to Tesla that the Audi Engineer describes that makes it very different to Tesla and me not confident that they will succeed with their approach:
The Engineer in the car explained that they have a bunch of Engineers in different locations in Germany that fill a so call Situation Catalog. Its kind of a record for the car. Its a description and simulation how the car should react in every different situation on the street. What they try to accomplish is a simulate every situation possible and make the car react accordingly. He described the challenge to make sure every possible situation has been captured.
My take: You will never ever be able to describe every situation that you may have with that car on a street. Its just not realistic to assume that. In other words the car would not know what to do if a new situation appears that has not been thought through. Having said that I believe the Audis A8 is fundamentally less secure than the approach from Tesla and will be in the future. The approach makes me very uncomfortable going above L2 with Audi..
I am an Engineer myself and like Audi cars very much but have to admit to be disappointed to hear about that approach from Audis dev department.
How is this different from anyone's take?
Nobody does NN driving thus far, everyone has an algorithm.
Allow me to disagree. The approach from Tesla is fundamentally different from Audi. Right now there are two very different approaches in the market for FSD. I guess even some more nobody really knows about.
Apologize that I don't describe it here now but am happy to do it at a later point in time unless someone else want to jump in.
Of course there is. But both are aiming at solving the driving scenario/policy algorithmically.
The person I was responding too was confused to why there was contradicting information on the internet when he was searching, this was my explanation to why there was contradicting information.
However, Audi promised back in 2015 to have their L3 system ready in 2017 for production. And it is. No delays.. But Germany laws are actually not allowing the L3 system, so it will not launch until then.
To everyone complaining level 3 only works up to 60km/h as expected Audi also has a pretty good level 2 active lane keeping assist system.
Seems to work pretty well. I'm not sure how much the driver actively steers in some cases or if he just reacts to the warning if he is still there (every time that long text flashes up). Definitely does not let you drive without your hands on the wheel as long as Autopilot, but also seems to depend on the conditions: tight corner vs. Autobahn. Also slows down in if there is a corner ahead and stuff like that.
You can see the status in green icon below the speed.
@0:40 (also continues after the camera demo)
Night driving on the Autobahn with some attention assist (when you don't react) braking demonstrations.
Seems to work pretty well. I'm not sure how much the driver actively steers in some cases or if he just reacts to the warning if he is still there (every time that long text flashes up). Definitely does not let you drive without your hands on the wheel as long as Autopilot, but also seems to depend on the conditions: tight corner vs. Autobahn. Also slows down in if there is a corner ahead and stuff like that.
You can see the status in green icon below the speed.
@0:40 (also continues after the camera demo)
Night driving on the Autobahn with some attention assist (when you don't react) braking demonstrations.
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Thank you.
I believe the Level 2 steering assistance is quite limited by design, though, still. Audi has a step-by-step program that goes from limited Level 2 to limited Level 3 before going to full auto-steering at Level 4 by design, to avoid confusion (e.g. a full speed range Level 2 but a limited range Level 3)... It is a controversial approach, but this is my understanding.
I believe the Level 2 steering assistance is quite limited by design, though, still. Audi has a step-by-step program that goes from limited Level 2 to limited Level 3 before going to full auto-steering at Level 4 by design, to avoid confusion (e.g. a full speed range Level 2 but a limited range Level 3)... It is a controversial approach, but this is my understanding.
Hard to see what the driver is doing on the steering wheel but having tested the Audi Lane Assist on the brand new Audi A4 (new version) of a friend, it is just IMPOSSIBLE to use if you are not steering yourself.
The car does not stop bouncing left and right of the lane and it is really just a safety system to prevent drifting from the lane but you have to steer yourself as the car will not stay in the middle of the road by itself.
So I don't know what this Audi A8 is using but the system used in the A6 and A4 currently is not at all remotely close to "self driving" on the highway.
I will wager the systems are different between a8 and the rest of the a#. It's a frustrating thing and whenever some one claim they have a good autopilot implementation, best look at the overall car price tag. Except for pro pilot on Nissan (which is still coming), no one has a working auto pilot on a car under$65-70k.
googleiscoul
3 months maybe, 6 months definitely......
To be clear, Audi does NOT have an auto-steer system until the Level 3 system hits. New Audi A8 included. The latter can be better than Audi A4, after all it has many more sensors and the next-gen of hardware and software, but it is not an autopilot yet...
This is by design, even if that is a controversial design. (Hey, even @Bladerskb hates the approach.) What they have now is a traffic-jam assist (the Level 2 system), which is a combination of adaptive cruise and steer assistance as described.
Their roadmap is such that the Level 3 system (Audi A8 later this year, we presume) is the first that will actually do piloting - it is called the traffic-jam pilot. This design is to have a clear step-by-step roadmap where there is no Level 2 system that works in a wider range of circumstances than their Level 3 or Level 4 systems... so their approach is very different from Teslas, which is working on a highly capable Level 2 system as the first step.
For Audi, the first to do piloting in a wide range of speeds will be the Level 4 highway system in a year or two. They've already demonstrated that too, so clearly it works, but since they are aiming for Levels 3 and 4 - where Audi is responsible for the piloted driving (you can read a book, on Level 4 you can take a nap) - their approach is very different.
So, unitl Level 3 hits, Audi does not have auto-steer, just a system that assists the steering event when you are driving.
Unless they change the roadmap, of course.
This is by design, even if that is a controversial design. (Hey, even @Bladerskb hates the approach.) What they have now is a traffic-jam assist (the Level 2 system), which is a combination of adaptive cruise and steer assistance as described.
Their roadmap is such that the Level 3 system (Audi A8 later this year, we presume) is the first that will actually do piloting - it is called the traffic-jam pilot. This design is to have a clear step-by-step roadmap where there is no Level 2 system that works in a wider range of circumstances than their Level 3 or Level 4 systems... so their approach is very different from Teslas, which is working on a highly capable Level 2 system as the first step.
For Audi, the first to do piloting in a wide range of speeds will be the Level 4 highway system in a year or two. They've already demonstrated that too, so clearly it works, but since they are aiming for Levels 3 and 4 - where Audi is responsible for the piloted driving (you can read a book, on Level 4 you can take a nap) - their approach is very different.
So, unitl Level 3 hits, Audi does not have auto-steer, just a system that assists the steering event when you are driving.
Unless they change the roadmap, of course.
Agree except on this point: I would argue that making a demo is hardly a proof that "it works" in all conditions. Heck, Tesla also has a video of autonomous driving but we all know that, yet, there are still not ready.
Fair enough, however I would make the point that Audi has shown their system to journalists over the years many times. My point was to note, based on impartial sources, that their system is already known to be much more advanced than what they are shipping.
Because they want to ship a system where these are available as Level 3/4 - Audi responsible for the driving no less - and not ship them as Level 2 at all to avoid confusion.
A controversial approach for sure. Many others seem to be aiming at highly capable Level 2 first and possibly skipping Level 3 altogether.
Nissan has a level 4 system that has been demonstrated to journalists many times, and seems pretty much ready and in the manufacturing and regulatory stage.
Indeed, they are saying 2020 for it to ship, so they might actually beat Tesla to it.
Indeed, they are saying 2020 for it to ship, so they might actually beat Tesla to it.
mspohr
Well-Known Member
They have demonstrated it working in multiple vehicles around London. That's way more than Tesla ever did. Hardly hype.
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