CyberDutchie
Active Member
Yeah, this retrofit should be on the to-do list of the first annual service check, for those in the not so cold climates.
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Fogging
- Thread starter goaliemanshark
- Start date
Yeah, this retrofit should be on the to-do list of the first annual service check, for those in the not so cold climates.
Great news on the vent improvements. New Englanders will want this; although our winter conditions haven't been very wintry this season, February and March are often snowy, wet, and high humidity.
znino
Member
I agree. Says who? Tesla? I don't think factory assembly is the same as service center assembly. Ever. And the more you fiddle with any assembled product the more it becomes loose over time. I have seen it with top of the line Mercedes cars and see no reason why or how tesla would have designed anything that can avoid this. It's just a shame that a brand new $100000 car has to be opened up for a modification such as this. Frankly I kept hearing about how much winter testing they did with the car. I expected that any issues that are so consistent and widespread would have been caught prior to final design.
Most cars don't go from drawing board to delivery in 3 years though so they did a very rapid development. I would think the Model S this time next year will be slightly more refined and by 2015 will have many of the features people expect in this price point.
I've seen a Model S interior partially disassembled by a Ranger (not mine, it was visiting from out of town, and I offered a place to work so our friendly Ranger wouldn't freeze!). The clips that hold the interior panels on are quite robust, but are also mounted so as to be tighter than is usual. As a result the clips often break when the panels are removed. The Rangers come equipped with lots of spares for that very reason. The tight clips mean the panels don't rattle.
I had an unpleasant experience with an Infiniti (otherwise fantastic car) that had a faulty ECU and required the dash to be worked in. After that was done, I definetly noticed more squeaks, especially in winter.
In this context, I asked Joost de Vries about it, and again he replied promptly (big props to him, on a sunday!):
Quoted from Joost de Vries:
"Regarding production vs. service. The BIG difference between Tesla and our industry colleagues is that we own all our service centers and every person that touches our cars is employed by Tesla
and working on a salary rather than flat rate times. This unlike every other car manufacturer where a local dealer is a private company that may or may not decide to keep their technicians trained by their various franchise OE's and normally pays their technicians on a flat rate time which fosters the need to 'hurry up' rather than fix a car correctly.
There really is no difference between service building a car in Quebec vs. the factory building a car in Fremont. It is the same people with the same processes. All service technicians worldwide
have worked in the factory, and are trained on the repair and build processes.
This particular retrofit is a very simple straightforward change of a few components, and we see no issues with this in the field. The timing of final production parts will be months away as the tooling lead time is simply not a matter of weeks but many months.
I hope this allays your fears regarding your Infiniti experience."
Given the above, and the info reported by Doug_G, I consider my concerns allayed, and will give Tesla the benefit of the doubt.
So far I am a very satisfied customer, who just happens to not have his car yet...
In this context, I asked Joost de Vries about it, and again he replied promptly (big props to him, on a sunday!):
Quoted from Joost de Vries:
"Regarding production vs. service. The BIG difference between Tesla and our industry colleagues is that we own all our service centers and every person that touches our cars is employed by Tesla
and working on a salary rather than flat rate times. This unlike every other car manufacturer where a local dealer is a private company that may or may not decide to keep their technicians trained by their various franchise OE's and normally pays their technicians on a flat rate time which fosters the need to 'hurry up' rather than fix a car correctly.
There really is no difference between service building a car in Quebec vs. the factory building a car in Fremont. It is the same people with the same processes. All service technicians worldwide
have worked in the factory, and are trained on the repair and build processes.
This particular retrofit is a very simple straightforward change of a few components, and we see no issues with this in the field. The timing of final production parts will be months away as the tooling lead time is simply not a matter of weeks but many months.
I hope this allays your fears regarding your Infiniti experience."
Given the above, and the info reported by Doug_G, I consider my concerns allayed, and will give Tesla the benefit of the doubt.
So far I am a very satisfied customer, who just happens to not have his car yet...
znino
Member
Then I too am relieved and will give them the benefit of the doubt. I suspect that the build design for the S was far more scrutinized than what was present with the Roadster (Lotus?). The Rattles and squeaks on the Roadster are plenty and with every time they touch the dash it gets worse. My hopes with what has been said is that the S will behave completely differently.
adurstewitz
P3853, VIN3062
FYI - Fogging is really bad here in NC while its raining. Have had to setup the blowers to stay on the front window.
Personally, I can see where this issue might not have come up in testing. I'm an hour north of Toronto and have driven in plenty of snowy and cold conditions. I've only experience fogging once, quickly cured by increasing fan speed and shifting to fresh air. I did note the problem with the defrost setting returning to different settings than before engaging it, so I've left my fan speed high and airflow to the windscreen on.
One difference that might be significant is that I dislike the "new car smell" produced by off gassing and thus left the car in my garage with the pano open for the first week. My car also sat for several weeks before I was able to pick it up due to health issues.
I'm definitely interested in the proposed fix, but I don't have any serious concerns besides minor firmware fixes with the current performance. When I read of others with actual ice forming, I have to think that there may be other variables involved.
One difference that might be significant is that I dislike the "new car smell" produced by off gassing and thus left the car in my garage with the pano open for the first week. My car also sat for several weeks before I was able to pick it up due to health issues.
I'm definitely interested in the proposed fix, but I don't have any serious concerns besides minor firmware fixes with the current performance. When I read of others with actual ice forming, I have to think that there may be other variables involved.
....one small product improvement (optional, as only "required" in cold places), would be the opportunity to order the S with heated front glass...... I do believe it will also be energy efficient, as a few minutes with this use much less power from the batteries compared to high use of heater and fan.
Greatest idea ever.
People in snowy and icy places really hate scraping ice while waiting for the car to heat up. Electric car-cabin pre-heaters (and engine-block heaters) have a huge market up here in the northern countries for that very reason.
If Tesla offered heated windshields, and of course the opportunity to remotely turn the heat on / timer-system for pre-heating (how's the progress on that by the way?), I and many others would gladly pay for it. Not that Tesla are having any trouble attracting orders from Norway, but nonetheless....
mknox
Well-Known Member
Curious about "shifting to fresh air". Every car I've owned has defaulted to fresh air unless Max A/C is selected in the summer. Using "Recirculate" in the winter is a sure-fire way to get window fogging. Is Mode S defaulting to "Recircuate"? That would sure explain all of the fogging we're hearing about.
znino
Member
I cannot. It is a problem that has been reported plenty and almost across the board. Consider yourself lucky if you have not had it. They are testing a car for production. That is not done by taking it on two hours of driving in cold weather. It is hours and hours of tests at different temperatures and humidities. Whatever...as long as they fix it.
It's humidity. My second road trip was at -12C and nearly 100% humidity (snowstorm). After about 1.5 hours the ice was thick enough I couldn't see anything through it, and had to stop to buy a scraper. This wasn't an isolated incident as I have used the scraper on several subsequent days.
CyberDutchie
Active Member
Benefit of the doubt? That doesn't sound like you're all that convinced. Personally, after reading that fantastic reponse from Joost de Vries, I have complete fate in the capabilities of Tesla service people in the field.
Tesla is the greatest car company with a far superior business model. :love:
NigelM
Recovering Member
Fogging disappears in about 1 second, but we're right in the middle of our dry season at the moment.
Mulder1231,
I was also very impressed with the rapid and forthcoming responses I got from the Tesla execs, but unlike you I do not see "giving them the benefit of the doubt" as a negative, rather they have not lost my confidence that they can resolve this issue without creating new problems (for example, squeaks and rattles after reassembling the dash). As I posted previously, I am still a happy customer.
However, IMHO this fogging issue should have been picked up during the cold weather testing... but Tesla realizes it is a real problem, and is quickly taking steps to correct it.
Thus the situation is not optimal (i.e. problem fixed during testing, customers never affected), but its ongoing resolution is still very good (and enormously above average when compared with their automotive competitors).
Agree with your :love: Tesla !
:biggrin:
I was also very impressed with the rapid and forthcoming responses I got from the Tesla execs, but unlike you I do not see "giving them the benefit of the doubt" as a negative, rather they have not lost my confidence that they can resolve this issue without creating new problems (for example, squeaks and rattles after reassembling the dash). As I posted previously, I am still a happy customer.
However, IMHO this fogging issue should have been picked up during the cold weather testing... but Tesla realizes it is a real problem, and is quickly taking steps to correct it.
Thus the situation is not optimal (i.e. problem fixed during testing, customers never affected), but its ongoing resolution is still very good (and enormously above average when compared with their automotive competitors).
Agree with your :love: Tesla !
:biggrin:
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