For those in Norcal: How long does it take PG&E to approve a 200A service?

[holeydonut]

So it’s not just Tesla Energy that you felt was giving you problems then. How much more was going with Sunrun costing you?

I wonder if all the wildfire damage, rebuilding of homes and reworking of PG&E’s lines to reduce areas of outages has the essential people tied up so you’re job is low priority since you have power at least.

On the PV side, Sunrun as a customized solution wasn't much more expensive than Tesla's cookie-cutter approach. Sunrun is paying for the 200A service work and new MSP (assuming PG&E ever approves the work). They're also handling the change to my sub-panel for my ACs that Tesla would have charged more for.

There were also some things that Sunrun would do that Tesla wouldn't. Sunrun didn't charge anything extra for my request for the better racking method using a three-course-method instead of tile hooks. Tesla also wouldn't commit to me getting a TEG2 (they said I'd get whatever their engineer assigned).

Sunrun came in at $3.00 / watt (before any tax incentives). I can't tell where Tesla would have landed after factoring in the costs they added for the 200A MSP and possible sub panel stuff since my order stalled/died with them before I got a full quote.

Yeah, there are lots of possible excuses for why a "slam dunk" suddenly became a "dunno what is going on" situation. I know 2020 is rough for everybody. But I also know I'm being dealt zero slack at work even with the challenging environment. And I'm delivering on all my targets/goals in spite of everything. Plus I'm spending more time posting on TMC. So, I get frustrated hearing excuses from Sunrun and PG&E... I want to hear what it'll take to get things done and achieve forward progress.

 

[wwhitney]

How many Enphase IQ7+? A picture of your service panel label would be informative.

With 3x Powerwalls, it makes sense to empty your service panel of any distribution breakers so that it's just a 150A disconnect. Can your panel accept a 150A distribution breaker? If so, there's no need to upgrade it: you can install up to 39 Enphase IQ7+ with 3 Powerwalls and stay under 150A, and you can use a downstream topology that avoids the 120% rule. Plus you can always do the upgrade later and decouple the two projects.

If not, then it makes sense to upgrade the service panel, although if it can accept a 125A breaker, and if your load calc is under 125A, you could proceed with it as a 125A disconnect and up to 23 Enphase IQ7+.

Cheers, Wayne

 

[holeydonut]

I’m sure they don’t want to get into a situation where they have installed hardware on your house and you are refusing to pay because it’s not working. Obviously things should work out fine with the service upgrade, but if something happens and the upgrade takes much longer than expected or if the utility refuses the upgrade for some reason it could put them in a tough spot with labor spent and hardware installed on your house that could wind up being unusable.

I told them I'd wire then the full cash today if that meant moving forward on the install. And they still refused lol. I just want to take a picture of the stuff on my roof and walls for IRS purposes and to get the SGIP application going.

Assuming WW3 doesn't start after this General Election I imagine all things can be solved with time. The problem is that the Federal tax incentive dropping and SGIP funding going to $0 is eating into the available time I have.

 

[BrettS]

I told them I'd wire then the full cash today if that meant moving forward on the install. And they still refused lol. I just want to take a picture of the stuff on my roof and walls for IRS purposes and to get the SGIP application going.

The problem is that big companies like SunRun and Tesla have a lot of bureaucracy. The sales reps and project managers aren’t allowed to make a policy change like that since they would probably want to get legal involved to make you sign something acknowledging that you will be taking all the risk. But to them it’s not worth taking legal’s time to generate or vet a one off document like that for a single customer.

It sucks when you’re in that position, but to them they would rather lose you as a customer and pick up someone else who isn’t going to try to rock the boat then to try to cater to your needs.

 

[holeydonut]

How many Enphase IQ7+? A picture of your service panel label would be informative.

With 3x Powerwalls, it makes sense to empty your service panel of any distribution breakers so that it's just a 150A disconnect. Can your panel accept a 150A distribution breaker? If so, there's no need to upgrade it: you can install up to 39 Enphase IQ7+ with 3 Powerwalls and stay under 150A, and you can use a downstream topology that avoids the 120% rule. Plus you can always do the upgrade later and decouple the two projects.

If not, then it makes sense to upgrade the service panel, although if it can accept a 125A breaker, and if your load calc is under 125A, you could proceed with it as a 125A disconnect and up to 23 Enphase IQ7+.

Cheers, Wayne

It's 23x panels/inverters. My existing panel outside by the meter cannot accept a 150A distribution breaker. It currently has a 90A going into the breaker box inside the home (all the backup loads) and a 60A going to a sub-panel for my air conditioners (this circuit cannot be backed up).

When my neighbor added his Tesla charging station they couldn't just add it to the 60A side; they had to change the MSP to do a 200A main disconnect. Sunrun's engineering said they won't authorize the install unless this change is done to my home as well.

 

[holeydonut]

The problem is that big companies like SunRun and Tesla have a lot of bureaucracy. The sales reps and project managers aren’t allowed to make a policy change like that since they would probably want to get legal involved to make you sign something acknowledging that you will be taking all the risk. But to them it’s not worth taking legal’s time to generate or vet a one off document like that for a single customer.

It sucks when you’re in that position, but to them they would rather lose you as a customer and pick up someone else who isn’t going to try to rock the boat then to try to cater to your needs.

Yeah I hear ya. It's so different doing B2B transactions vs being the loser C in a B2C arrangement.

 

[wwhitney]

It's 23x panels/inverters.

OK, so if your main panel can take a 125A distribution breaker, there's still a way to make the PV/Powerwall install happen before the panel upgrade. With no rework, although you might end up with one more panel than if you waited. But Sunrun may prefer to wait and do it their standard way.

Cheers, Wayne

 

[mongo]

Maybe this is the mixup... but no, I'm not asking PG&E to upgrade my line. All the homes in my subdivision were built within a year of each other and are pretty cookie cutter. After speaking with my adjacent neighbors, some had their homes upgraded to 200A service by PG&E when they bought their Teslas; or had Solar installed. They said it was not very expensive for this.

A few months ago Sunrun's PM said they "do this 200A service upgrade all the time and it's no big deal." Sunrun's work order also says this is a "zero cost" to me and part of the original bid.

Is it possible that the houses in your neighborhood share transformers and that power limit has previously been reached on the one you are connected to? i.e. it can handle feeding 2 150A and 2 200A, but not 3 200A and 1 150A.

 

[wwhitney]

Is it possible that the houses in your neighborhood share transformers and that power limit has previously been reached on the one you are connected to? i.e. it can handle feeding 2 150A and 2 200A, but not 3 200A and 1 150A.

The power company doesn't size transformers that way. Upgrading the service panel from 150A to 200A in a situation like the OP doesn't actually increase the load on the transformer. [Now if they were adding an EV charger at the same time, that could influence transformer sizing.]

However, the PV connection could theoretically be an issue. If there are other customers on the transformer who already have PV, then the power company has to consider if the transformer is big enough for the case of little residential load and all PV producing at peak.

Cheers, Wayne

 

[mongo]

The power company doesn't size transformers that way. Upgrading the service panel from 150A to 200A in a situation like the OP doesn't actual increase the load on the transformer. [Now if they were adding an EV charger at the same time, that could influence transformer sizing.]

However, the PV connection could theoretically be an issue. If there are other customers on the transformer who already have PV, then the power company has to consider if the transformer is big enough for the case of little residential load and all PV producing at peak.

Cheers, Wayne

It that because they are going on calculated load vs max possible? In which case PW that charge only from solar are not an impact?

 

[holeydonut]

It took about 3 week for them to approve my 200 amp service panel upgrade. I'm in Merced. The upgrade was done today. Solar and PW going in on Friday.

I am very jealous haha. Hope the install goes well!

 

[holeydonut]

The power company doesn't size transformers that way. Upgrading the service panel from 150A to 200A in a situation like the OP doesn't actual increase the load on the transformer. [Now if they were adding an EV charger at the same time, that could influence transformer sizing.]

However, the PV connection could theoretically be an issue. If there are other customers on the transformer who already have PV, then the power company has to consider if the transformer is big enough for the case of little residential load and all PV producing at peak.

Cheers, Wayne

This is a possibility; I wish PG&E or Sunrun would explain the situation instead of hitting me with the "just wait and wait and wait" schtick.

The irony of all this is that I hate PG&E so much the whole reason I'm doing this 8 kW array and 3x Powerwall is to hopefully use PG&E as little as possible. I couldn't add any more panels on my house .

I don't even have a EV... I think once I get a EV it'll be back to relying on PG&E

 

[wwhitney]

It that because they are going on calculated load vs max possible? In which case PW that charge only from solar are not an impact?

Not calculated load, actual real-world measured load. The power company has years and years of data from hundreds of thousands of customers. A house may have an NEC calculated load of 120A, get a 200A service, and have an average usage of only 10A (that's 60 kWh/day) with a peak of only 60A.

Cheers, Wayne

 

[miimura]

Is it possible that the houses in your neighborhood share transformers and that power limit has previously been reached on the one you are connected to? i.e. it can handle feeding 2 150A and 2 200A, but not 3 200A and 1 150A.

In PG&E territory, the customer is not responsible for the cost of the transformer upgrade if necessary. The customer is only responsible for the service conductors to the nearest pole or junction. If the service conductors don't need to be upgraded (ie. 150A to 200A) then the cost should be reasonable. They would just have to disconnect the service, have the panel upgraded with 200A meter socket, then reconnect the service and place a 200A meter. The significant expense would come if the service conductors have to be upgraded. That may involve trenching and placing new conduits by a contractor, then PG&E pulling the new service conductors through the new conduits.

 

[Vines]

In PG&E territory, the customer is not responsible for the cost of the transformer upgrade if necessary. The customer is only responsible for the service conductors to the nearest pole or junction. If the service conductors don't need to be upgraded (ie. 150A to 200A) then the cost should be reasonable. They would just have to disconnect the service, have the panel upgraded with 200A meter socket, then reconnect the service and place a 200A meter. The significant expense would come if the service conductors have to be upgraded. That may involve trenching and placing new conduits by a contractor, then PG&E pulling the new service conductors through the new conduits.

True for a shared transformer, but not if it only serves you. If it only serves your house its on you to upgrade. This happened to 0.01% of our customers, so its rare but happens.

 

[SMAlset]

On the PV side, Sunrun as a customized solution wasn't much more expensive than Tesla's cookie-cutter approach. Sunrun is paying for the 200A service work and new MSP (assuming PG&E ever approves the work). They're also handling the change to my sub-panel for my ACs that Tesla would have charged more for.

There were also some things that Sunrun would do that Tesla wouldn't. Sunrun didn't charge anything extra for my request for the better racking method using a three-course-method instead of tile hooks. Tesla also wouldn't commit to me getting a TEG2 (they said I'd get whatever their engineer assigned).

Sunrun came in at $3.00 / watt (before any tax incentives). I can't tell where Tesla would have landed after factoring in the costs they added for the 200A MSP and possible sub panel stuff since my order stalled/died with them before I got a full quote.

Yeah, there are lots of possible excuses for why a "slam dunk" suddenly became a "dunno what is going on" situation. I know 2020 is rough for everybody. But I also know I'm being dealt zero slack at work even with the challenging environment. And I'm delivering on all my targets/goals in spite of everything. Plus I'm spending more time posting on TMC. So, I get frustrated hearing excuses from Sunrun and PG&E... I want to hear what it'll take to get things done and achieve forward progress.

Will Sunrun offer any adjustments if you miss out on the difference in federal tax credit if your install doesn’t happen until 2021? Since you also signed up with them for PWs do they even have those committed to your order or are they out of inventory like other 3rd party companies?

 

[miimura]

True for a shared transformer, but not if it only serves you. If it only serves your house its on you to upgrade. This happened to 0.01% of our customers, so its rare but happens.

I hadn't thought of that. The "nearest pole" is also sometimes an issue. PG&E made my father in law install a new pole at his expense to bring new service to a property that he sub-divided and built on. The old house on the property had an overhead line direct to the house that crossed a creek. The new service had to be underground, so a new pole was needed to land on his side of the creek and then go underground. There were some weird stipulations that I don't recall about how the pole was paid for and whether he would receive any reimbursement if anyone new connected to the pole in the future. I think he chose the lower up-front cost and chose to forego any potential compensation in the future.

 

[holeydonut]

FWIW I finally heard back from PG&E and Sunrun about moving forward on the install.

My power line is underground and apparently my application for 200A service was accidentally routed to a PG&E rep who can only handle above ground service. So that person didn’t know what to do for a month and just sat on it.

Sunrun says they’re sorry for not harassing PG&E sooner on this... it took me getting pissed at the Sunrun rep to have them actually harass PG&E on this to get it unstuck.

PG&E finally sent my case back to a new engineer to start the month long process to determine if my Service conductor can handle 200A and whether I need underground conduit. Then it’s another month to get approval for the new main panel work and meter. They don’t think this will be done until December at the earliest due to the PSPS and other demands of their engineers.

If TMC had animated emojis - I’d need the one of the yellow dude throwing his phone at PG&E’s face.

 

[Vines]

FWIW I finally heard back from PG&E and Sunrun about moving forward on the install.

My power line is underground and apparently my application for 200A service was accidentally routed to a PG&E rep who can only handle above ground service. So that person didn’t know what to do for a month and just sat on it.

Sunrun says they’re sorry for not harassing PG&E sooner on this... it took me getting pissed at the Sunrun rep to have them actually harass PG&E on this to get it unstuck.

PG&E finally sent my case back to a new engineer to start the month long process to determine if my Service conductor can handle 200A and whether I need underground conduit. Then it’s another month to get approval for the new main panel work and meter. They don’t think this will be done until December at the earliest due to the PSPS and other demands of their engineers.

If TMC had animated emojis - I’d need the one of the yellow dude throwing his phone at PG&E’s face.

That explains it better, simply people at PG&E are overworked and making mistakes.

Every year near the end of the year it gets crazy in Solar as the tax credits are going down. Good luck!

 

[holeydonut]

Just in case anyone actually cares... I was able to get a hold of the PG&E engineer directly (instead of going through Sunrun). And he agreed someone messed up somewhere.

Basically Sunrun entered that my house only had 100 A service since that's what the highest rated breaker is in my home. Since PG&E saw that my house was currently only 100 A, the original engineer assumed (and you know why you should never ASSume) that the POCO's service line to my home was only Class 100 as well.

Even though Sunrun was asking for permission to upgrade my MSP to have a single 200 A disconnect; PG&E initially rejected this proposal since they incorrectly believed my home only had Class 100 service and was not eligible for a 200 A main disconnect.

But the new Engineer listened to me and agreed that it was best for someone to actually look at the line diagram of my house and agreed to send someone to my home to finally look at things with their eyes. They found aluminum #4/0 AWG (which I guess is conductively equivalent to copper #2/0 AWG). So my house is already set up for Class 200 service on the POCO side.

PG&E has now approved my MSP upgrade to go from the ghetto thing to a single 200 A disconnect. But since PG&E has a monster backlog, they won't be able to schedule an energy disconnect until early December.

UGH. GUH.



TLDR; Sunrun told PG&E I only had 100 A service even though Sunrun wanted to upgrade my main panel to 200 A. Since 100 is less than 200, PG&E would demand a $10k fee to trench and upgrade my service line. But an engineer dedicated to above ground lines cannot recommend action for underground service lines... so the case just sat there for weeks.