I didn’t buy FSD partly because I don’t think the very limited extra functionality is worth anywhere near the price and partly because I’m just not interested in autonomous driving. I love to drive the car myself and very rarely use TACC or NOA. I am interested in and will pay for technology that helps to stop me having a crash. For me a car that does have true full autonomy with no driver input is the stuff of nightmares.
FSD or not FSD
- Thread starter Krokkodillo
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squarepeg77
Member
AndyS3 - which service centre is doing this upgrade? I haven’t seen anyone in the UK report a HW3 upgrade yet.
Pazz
Member
It's the EU regulations which effectively cap FSD's value. Tesla should reflect this in the price in the relevant markets. Charging the same irrespectively just doesn't make sense.
I simply couldn’t justify adding the FSD option to my recent order for a LR Model 3. Quite frankly, calling it FSD for the UK market constitutes misselling IMHO as it’s nowhere near that goal and unlikely to get there anytime soon.
Mine is going to Leeds. Ive had a call to confirm they're doing a small warranty repair and HW3 install.
Btw my upgrade price was much less than some of the prices I've seen on this thread
VanillaAir_UK
Supporting Member
And of that £5800, 50% of that (based upon EAP/FSD upgrade price) is EAP that has very many happy users. So currently, the cost of the non existent (in UK) 'FSD' part of the FSD functionality, is ballpark £2900 (was £2000 discount on early M3 orders), potentially soon to be £3900 or even £4900 if the still not applied outstanding $1000 to non US versions still remains to be applied to bring worldwide pricing parity.
We paid £4800 (£4900?) for FSD on ordering which included an early doors £1000 discount. I felt that was OK considering the previous price of EAP which was basically what was (and still is) at that point in time. That £1000 discount soon got lost due to spec change and (for others it would have been in a) price restructuring (latter worked significantly in our favor), but by that point, we were in for a penny etc.
I don't think I would pay £5800 now if buying new, let alone £7k/£8k what ever it becomes, but if someone offered me £5800 and removed FSD from our car, I suspect I would say no as a few months down the line, when the cars capabilities reach the top of the incline on the roller-coaster ride, I've been in the queue with all the expectations that brings and I would want to be on the roller-coaster ride to the end of the ride.
As usual Elon has some trouble telling the truth when he says FSD is going to get more expensive as time goes on.....
This is how much Tesla wanted for FSD on our car 18 months ago, much more than the asking price today!!
VanillaAir_UK
Supporting Member
Did your car have autopilot at the time? So the price may have included, at that point in time, AP + EAP + FSD - the upgrade says Autopilot + FSD capability, so implies that that price also included the additional autopilot cost that was still an (~ £3k?) option prior to early last year.
qingshan
18 lr rwd fsd
AndrewGR
Member
John_L
Member
I didn't buy FSD, I have no interest in buying FSD, in the future - even if it can be made to work in a RHD environment like the UK. I sometimes entertain my friends with a demonstration of Autopilot, but that's all.
As a member of the Institute of Advanced Motorists and holder of a RoSPA Gold standard certificate, I firmly believe that the best self driving system is the Kilogram of organic supercomputer that you're balancing on your shoulders, providing you program it properly!
As a member of the Institute of Advanced Motorists and holder of a RoSPA Gold standard certificate, I firmly believe that the best self driving system is the Kilogram of organic supercomputer that you're balancing on your shoulders, providing you program it properly!
Tesla have done at least x2 AP/FSD 14 day 'trials'. The 2nd was enough to convince me to get FSD in the fire sale.
I suspect Tesla will do the same again later this year. A FSD trial period followed by 'discounting' of FSD price at the time to current cost as a psychological lever to seal the deal.
Elon is one of best con men on the planet (perhaps ever in modern history?), he knows how to convince people to part with their money better than anyone else.
VanillaAir_UK
Supporting Member
I can't see people spending £100-£150/month or whatever the amortised cost would be for a subscription.
To be honest with FSD in the state it is in, particularly in the UK with UNECE restrictions, you're pretty much buying into it now because you're "buying into the idea", "funding the programme", "pre-empting future price rises", "FOMO", "I love gadgets" or whatever, none of which really square with a subscription model you can drop in and out of whenever you want.
I paid £5,800 for FSD, but honestly it's pretty much like the MacBook Pro touch bar - it's a gee whizz feature that is great in theory but less so in application. I could not honestly justify the cost of it in objective terms, you can buy another car for the money. I bought it because the car driving itself, to me, is its raison d'etre. If I hadn't bought it, and couldn't Summon it - as useless as that is right now - I'd feel like I didn't have the full experience. I also want to be the first to get the latest visualisations and stuff, that I'd like to think FSD owners would get.
To be honest with FSD in the state it is in, particularly in the UK with UNECE restrictions, you're pretty much buying into it now because you're "buying into the idea", "funding the programme", "pre-empting future price rises", "FOMO", "I love gadgets" or whatever, none of which really square with a subscription model you can drop in and out of whenever you want.
I paid £5,800 for FSD, but honestly it's pretty much like the MacBook Pro touch bar - it's a gee whizz feature that is great in theory but less so in application. I could not honestly justify the cost of it in objective terms, you can buy another car for the money. I bought it because the car driving itself, to me, is its raison d'etre. If I hadn't bought it, and couldn't Summon it - as useless as that is right now - I'd feel like I didn't have the full experience. I also want to be the first to get the latest visualisations and stuff, that I'd like to think FSD owners would get.
it's quite a hard decision to make. I don't have FSD and in the UK it's pretty much useless. at just shy of £6k it's a total rip off currently, and I feel sorry for the people that bought into the idea 3 years ago and have since sold their car having never seen the features they expected.
However, I do think that in a couple of years it may well become a very useful feature.
The issue I have is I have no way of knowing what the residual value would be on my car when it's 5 years old with or without FSD.
If it ended up as a £10k add on that people actually wanted, then maybe it would raise the value of a 5 year old car 5k over one without it, meaning that the actual cost would be 1K ... which is probably worth it.
It feels a bit like spending £20k building an extension to your house just before selling it, vs spending that 20k 2 years before you sell and actually enjoying the extra space.
Maybe the sensible option is to put the money in Tesla shares, if they ever do crack FSD the share price will sky rocket and it doesn't matter how much they charge for it, if they don't and the shares do drop down you'll probably loose as much as your non-functional FSD upgrade.
However, I do think that in a couple of years it may well become a very useful feature.
The issue I have is I have no way of knowing what the residual value would be on my car when it's 5 years old with or without FSD.
If it ended up as a £10k add on that people actually wanted, then maybe it would raise the value of a 5 year old car 5k over one without it, meaning that the actual cost would be 1K ... which is probably worth it.
It feels a bit like spending £20k building an extension to your house just before selling it, vs spending that 20k 2 years before you sell and actually enjoying the extra space.
Maybe the sensible option is to put the money in Tesla shares, if they ever do crack FSD the share price will sky rocket and it doesn't matter how much they charge for it, if they don't and the shares do drop down you'll probably loose as much as your non-functional FSD upgrade.
Tesla don't price in any value to FSD in their residual value estimates in their PCP calculator, and none of the 8+ lease companies I spoke to before deciding to buy outright did either. It was a straight addition to the total loan amount, with payments increasing over the term accordingly.
Let's be clear - robotaxis aren't going to happen in the Model 3s lifespan, regardless of anything Elon says. It has to be at least 5, more likely 10+ years away technically, and probably another 5 years on top of that in regulatory terms. There are a myriad of significant technical hurdles to overcome even if you assumed the Model 3 hardware (resolution, CPU speed, framerate, number of cameras) were capable of it, which I doubt, and without considering the various things that already might and do cause it problems (low sun, mud, etc).
So, yes, right now you are buying in to the fact that you'll be on the bleeding edge of whatever self-driving tech Tesla releases (UNECE stifling notwithstanding), but assuming it'll be anything more than that, even in 2-3 years time, is wishful thinking I think.
Let's be clear - robotaxis aren't going to happen in the Model 3s lifespan, regardless of anything Elon says. It has to be at least 5, more likely 10+ years away technically, and probably another 5 years on top of that in regulatory terms. There are a myriad of significant technical hurdles to overcome even if you assumed the Model 3 hardware (resolution, CPU speed, framerate, number of cameras) were capable of it, which I doubt, and without considering the various things that already might and do cause it problems (low sun, mud, etc).
So, yes, right now you are buying in to the fact that you'll be on the bleeding edge of whatever self-driving tech Tesla releases (UNECE stifling notwithstanding), but assuming it'll be anything more than that, even in 2-3 years time, is wishful thinking I think.
VanillaAir_UK
Supporting Member
From what I have seen, the AP rewrite (for those that do not know what it is, I will give my summary below) will be a game changer for HW3 AP/FSD. I conjunction with relaxing some of the un-r79 restrictions, I firmly believe that the potential of what AP/FSD can do will be transformed. It will leave Tesla no where to hide wrt to many of the disengagements that we currently see, when used in the operational design domain or not. What Tesla seem to be lining up to do is putting a firm disambiguation between AP and FSD capabilities, ie AP on highways, FSD on highways and city driving. I am expecting some of the benefits from core requirements of HW3 FSD to filter down to AP, but not functionality. So for example, AP may get the benefits from improvements in cornering that will be needed by FSD when driving on city streets, but may not be qualified to actually perform that task as the functionality needed to perform that task will not be present - much as it is now. So many of the 'issues' that people see with AP when using it outside its design domain will be vastly improved or even solved, which could make people less critical of what FSD is likely to be able to achieve. imho.
The AP rewrite. My understanding:
Currently, Autopilot has been much limited by the constraints of older hardware, ie AP 1/2.x. With the advent of HW3, present on all UK Model 3's and other models build since ~Apr 2019, plus an ever increasing rollout of upgrades to earlier cars, Tesla are now in the position to exploit the significant performance improvements offered by HW3. For what ever reason (possibly lack of processing power), Tesla have until now, largely treated the inputs from each of its sensors separately, which has resulted at times, with conflicts between sensor inputs and more importantly, no coherent view of the world around it - enhanced summon *may* be the first feature to do things differently. This has greatly impacted the ability of the car to perform operations that are reliant on this coherent view. eg, when rounding a corner, some major sensors, such as some of the forward facing cameras, can lose sight of the road boundaries. The car would then need to react to this loss of boundary, possibly by picking up data from a different sensor (and a time delay in doing so), or by not behaving optimally, such as a disengagement or not handling the situation well in terms of speed and/or road position. Tesla have recognised this as a fundamental issue in the way they handle its incoherent view of the world.
The AP rewrite fundamentally changes the way that it handles data from its sensors and importantly, classifies what and when it thinks it is 'seeing' at the same time. At a very early stage, the inputs from each sensor will be combined to form a far more coherent view of the world. The part of the road boundary that it couldn't see is now present in its 360 degree view of the world. Its no longer got its blinkers on and having to look at different snapshots of what is going on around it. Its got its view and understanding of that view when it needs to make its decisions. And possibly even more important, objects can be tracked more accurately and for longer even if they briefly disappear from view, such as being occluded by roadside objects.
So AP's understanding of its surroundings will significantly improve. This should greatly improve what current functionality can do and provide a firm basis for new functionality into the future, FSD of course!
The AP rewrite. My understanding:
Currently, Autopilot has been much limited by the constraints of older hardware, ie AP 1/2.x. With the advent of HW3, present on all UK Model 3's and other models build since ~Apr 2019, plus an ever increasing rollout of upgrades to earlier cars, Tesla are now in the position to exploit the significant performance improvements offered by HW3. For what ever reason (possibly lack of processing power), Tesla have until now, largely treated the inputs from each of its sensors separately, which has resulted at times, with conflicts between sensor inputs and more importantly, no coherent view of the world around it - enhanced summon *may* be the first feature to do things differently. This has greatly impacted the ability of the car to perform operations that are reliant on this coherent view. eg, when rounding a corner, some major sensors, such as some of the forward facing cameras, can lose sight of the road boundaries. The car would then need to react to this loss of boundary, possibly by picking up data from a different sensor (and a time delay in doing so), or by not behaving optimally, such as a disengagement or not handling the situation well in terms of speed and/or road position. Tesla have recognised this as a fundamental issue in the way they handle its incoherent view of the world.
The AP rewrite fundamentally changes the way that it handles data from its sensors and importantly, classifies what and when it thinks it is 'seeing' at the same time. At a very early stage, the inputs from each sensor will be combined to form a far more coherent view of the world. The part of the road boundary that it couldn't see is now present in its 360 degree view of the world. Its no longer got its blinkers on and having to look at different snapshots of what is going on around it. Its got its view and understanding of that view when it needs to make its decisions. And possibly even more important, objects can be tracked more accurately and for longer even if they briefly disappear from view, such as being occluded by roadside objects.
So AP's understanding of its surroundings will significantly improve. This should greatly improve what current functionality can do and provide a firm basis for new functionality into the future, FSD of course!
I had my Model S with HW 2.5 to 3 yesterday. Job took 3 hours
My basic settings were reset, the car took a few miles to calibrate. First initial impressions, the car has a faster response to steering control, quicker but smaller turn angles to correct the line. I didn't get much variance in driving as it was mostly motorway route home.
Awaiting now the rewrite of software
My basic settings were reset, the car took a few miles to calibrate. First initial impressions, the car has a faster response to steering control, quicker but smaller turn angles to correct the line. I didn't get much variance in driving as it was mostly motorway route home.
Awaiting now the rewrite of software
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