FSD should be free.... for now

[Dan203]

While they’re still working it out the FSD feature should be "free while in beta". Tesla needs all the data they can get to perfect the feature. And one of the biggest advantages they have over the competition is their install base. So for now every single car should have the option to turn on FSD with the agreement that Tesla is allowed to collect whatever data they want and that they can take it away whenever they decide it's actually ready to sell.

You should still be able to pay $6k up front if you want, to ensure you'll still have it after the beta ends, but while it's still in beta everyone should have access to it so they can collect as much data as possible.

 

[mbman81]

You already give them all the data they need, whether you do FSD or not.

 

[BrandonLive]

Yeah, they get most of what they need from “shadow mode”, which applies to all Tesla drivers regardless of AP/FSD ownership or use.

 

[Dan203]

You already give them all the data they need, whether you do FSD or not.

They get some, but not all. When the car is steering and the user suddenly takes control back they know that something happened to trigger that event and it's worth looking at. When the user is driving how do they separate the valuable data from the mundane.

I think the main reason they're selling it now is because they can essentially "trick" people in to giving them thousands of dollars extra for a promise and help fund the company.

 

[WilliamG]

They get some, but not all. When the car is steering and the user suddenly takes control back they know that something happened to trigger that event and it's worth looking at. When the user is driving how do they separate the valuable data from the mundane.

I think the main reason they're selling it now is because they can essentially "trick" people in to giving them thousands of dollars extra for a promise and help fund the company.

Well, you and I can agree to disagree.

 

[Dan203]

Yeah, they get most of what they need from “shadow mode”, which applies to all Tesla drivers regardless of AP/FSD ownership or use.

Shadow mode only deals with accidents. It doesn’t help them with dealing with unusual traffic features, like merging lanes, or lanes splitting into regular and turn lanes, hills with corners, etc... all things it has trouble with now.

 

[Dan203]

I've been a software developer for a long time. The product always comes out better when you've got more people beta testing.

 

[BrandonLive]

Shadow mode only deals with accidents. It doesn’t help them with dealing with unusual traffic features, like merging lanes, or lanes splitting into regular and turn lanes, hills with corners, etc... all things it has trouble with now.

That is not even slightly accurate.

Shadow mode means the car is always running AP, and it predicts actions (e.g. “Should slow down now because of that object”), and labels whether the prediction was correct based on what the driver does (did or didn’t slow down).

 

[RobDickinson]

I've been a software developer for a long time. The product always comes out better when you've got more people beta testing.

They can and do run in shadow mode even if you have not paid for FSD.

 

[Dan203]

That is not even slightly accurate.

Shadow mode means the car is always running AP, and it predicts actions (e.g. “Should slow down now because of that object”), and labels whether the prediction was correct based on what the driver does (did or didn’t slow down).

When I looked it up it said they were only looking wt that data when an accident occurred to determine if the FSD would have made a better decision and avoided the accident.

Even if it is running all the time and logging the differences, without some significant event it would be really hard to filter out the important data from the noise.

 

[Dan203]

They can and do run in shadow mode even if you have not paid for FSD.

There is a difference between "shadow mode" and someone actually using the feature. "Shadow mode" has to guess when a differential between what it would have done and what the human driver did is important. If someone is actually using it they know something significant happened when the user was forced to take back control.

 

[RobDickinson]

There is a difference between "shadow mode" and someone actually using the feature. "Shadow mode" has to guess when a differential between what it would have done and what the human driver did is important. If someone is actually using it they know something significant happened when the user was forced to take back control.

But no one is actually using the FSD build yet anyhow ( which might be running in shadow mode). Theres only limited features enabled and those imo are just bolt on's to autopilot

 

[Dan203]

But no one is actually using the FSD build yet anyhow ( which might be running in shadow mode). Theres only limited features enabled and those imo are just bolt on's to autopilot

Navigate on autopilot is pretty much FSD on the freeway.

Summon, auto park, and auto lane change are just gimmicks used to make people feel like they’re getting something for their $6k.

 

[PoitNarf]

When I looked it up it said they were only looking wt that data when an accident occurred to determine if the FSD would have made a better decision and avoided the accident.

I do not believe this is accurate. Could you please provide a citation or link to where you read/saw this?

 

[Dan203]

I do not believe this is accurate. Could you please provide a citation or link to where you read/saw this?

Tesla’s new Autopilot will run in ‘shadow mode’ to prove that it’s safer than human driving

 

[BrandonLive]

When I looked it up it said they were only looking wt that data when an accident occurred to determine if the FSD would have made a better decision and avoided the accident.

That is absolutely incorrect. That would be a ridiculous way to use it, and they’ve never said anything of the sort.

Even if it is running all the time and logging the differences, without some significant event it would be really hard to filter out the important data from the noise.

This is called Machine Learning.

 

[S4WRXTTCS]

No, they should simply make it transferable or refundable if they're not able to deliver it with X amount of time.

If it never comes to fruition with my 3 I should be able to transfer it to a Tesla pickup or Model Y if I end up getting one of those before the 3 ever has it working.

Especially as it's becoming a larger, and larger component of the vehicle cost.

By the time I get the Model Y or Pickup it's going to be $10K, and probably won't actually achieve FSD.

 

[Dan203]

This is called Machine Learning.

No it's not. Machine learning is like a crude version of evolution in the digital world that needs known good data as a starting point...

They need to know why a prediction and the outcome differ. If all they know is that the human did something different than what they would have done they have no way of knowing if that's because the human made a mistake or their prediction was just wrong. They need actual humans to figure that out. And it's impossible for humans to sort through millions of hours of footage so they need to have some way to distinguish significant events from minor variations in predictions vs outcomes. Some bit of AI could try to make that determination but I suspect that having real people actually using the system and reacting to what the machine is doing produces more consistently good data.

Plus if you have people actually using it you can get bug reports, feedback, etc... that can be valuable as well.

If they are truly relying solely on this shadow thing it might be a case of over reliance on automation, like they originally tried with the M3 production. Some things are just better when actual humans get involved. (for now anyway)

 

[Dan203]

plus... how can anyone argue that having more Tesla owners actually using the system would be a bad thing? If it's just beta software that's going to be taken away when the official release comes along what's the harm? It's not going to diminish the value of your investment. In fact it may entice more people to buy it when the beta is over because they'll have come to rely on it over time.

The only downside I could see is to Tesla's bottom line. If they're using the money from these FSD purchases as a way to fund R&D and couldn’t survive without it, then I guess giving it away for free wouldn’t be good. But I'd hope the company is a bit kore stable than that.

 

[Octo]

You already give them all the data they need, whether you do FSD or not.

Only if you opted in or if Tesla is grabbing that data without your permission.

My Model 3 has an option that allows me to agree or disagree with Tesla accessing this data from my car. I agreed (and I don’t have FSD) but are you insinuating that Tesla is so unethical as to ignore this?