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Full self driving

dmurphy

Woof.
Dec 7, 2018
3,394
4,590
New Jersey - Morris County

Tam

Well-Known Member
Nov 25, 2012
8,417
7,255
Visalia, CA
So just curious how the forum feels, especially those Tesla owners who've already purchased the full self driving feature with the new revelation from Tesla to the California DMV..? Tesla Tells California DMV that FSD Is Not Capable of Autonomous Driving

There can be a difference between what a salesperson tells customers and the legal description of what those glorious promises from the salesperson mean.

Tesla staff, including Elon Musk have given us the glorious description of what FSD means: Robotaxis that makes money picking up rides by themselves while we sleep at home.

However, those are just salesperson talk. What counts is the legal language when you click to buy FSD. The language never says your payment will guarantee a car that drives itself without a human driver:

"Full Self-Driving Capability
$10,000

  1. Navigate on Autopilot
  2. Auto Lane Change
  3. Autopark
  4. Summon
  5. Full Self-Driving Computer
  6. Traffic Light and Stop Sign Control

Coming later this year​

  1. Autosteer on city streets
The currently enabled features require active driver supervision and do not make the vehicle autonomous. The activation and use of these features are dependent on achieving reliability far in excess of human drivers as demonstrated by billions of miles of experience, as well as regulatory approval, which may take longer in some jurisdictions. As these self-driving features evolve, your car will be continuously upgraded through over-the-air software updates."

---

I don't like blurring between glorious salespeople talks that does not clearly say that that talk is different from the legal descriptions in the purchase.

But that's the way the US legal system works and it's unfortunate for those who don't read but just rely on salespeople talks.
 
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drtimhill

Active Member
Apr 25, 2019
1,600
1,909
Seattle
So just curious how the forum feels, especially those Tesla owners who've already purchased the full self driving feature with the new revelation from Tesla to the California DMV..? Tesla Tells California DMV that FSD Is Not Capable of Autonomous Driving

As has been pointed out elsewhere, the DMV dialog is lawyer talk .. which means Tesla need to be careful how they position the FSD feature with the DMV. Ever tried reading all the legal disclaimers that come with EVERY product you buy today?

I for one never assumed Tesla would reach L4/5 with FSD, or even anytime soon. The current FSD beta, once the rough edges are cleaned up somewhat, was pretty much what I was expecting (and, even in its current state, is pretty amazing imho).
 

mark95476

Member
Jun 21, 2020
888
464
Bay Area CA
You missed one of the most useful FSD functions:
7. Chime on green light

My take on these FSD functions:
  1. Navigate on Autopilot ==> Don't use/don't care, I do the navigating
  2. Auto Lane Change ==> Good feature
  3. Autopark ==> Don't use/don't care, I park myself
  4. Summon ==> Don't use/don't care
  5. Full Self-Driving Computer ==> Good to know I'll get a new upgraded computer, if necessary
  6. Traffic Light and Stop Sign Control ==> Good feature, but needs improvement for some lights and intersections

Coming later this year​

  1. Autosteer on city streets ==> Probably won't use/don't care, I do the navigating


There can be a difference between what a salesperson tells customers and the legal description of what those glorious promises from the salesperson mean.

Tesla staff, including Elon Musk have given us the glorious description of what FSD means: Robotaxis that makes money picking up rides by themselves while we sleep at home.

However, those are just salesperson talk. What counts is the legal language when you click to buy FSD. The language never says your payment will guarantee a car that drives itself without a human driver:

"Full Self-Driving Capability
$10,000

  1. Navigate on Autopilot
  2. Auto Lane Change
  3. Autopark
  4. Summon
  5. Full Self-Driving Computer
  6. Traffic Light and Stop Sign Control

Coming later this year​

  1. Autosteer on city streets
The currently enabled features require active driver supervision and do not make the vehicle autonomous. The activation and use of these features are dependent on achieving reliability far in excess of human drivers as demonstrated by billions of miles of experience, as well as regulatory approval, which may take longer in some jurisdictions. As these self-driving features evolve, your car will be continuously upgraded through over-the-air software updates."

---

I don't like blurring between glorious salespeople talks that does not clearly say that that talk is different from the legal descriptions in the purchase.

But that's the way the US legal system works and it's unfortunate for those who don't read but just rely on salespeople talks.
 
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DanCar

Active Member
Oct 2, 2013
1,728
1,471
SF Bay Area
I expect that Tesla will eventually deliver exactly what Elon Musk promised me when I paid for Full Self Driving Capability (FSDC). I will be able to earn much more than I paid for FSDC by enrolling in a future Tesla Robotaxi service.
I'll be pleasantly surprised if this happens in the next 3 years for a small region. I see you are in Florida. You got an ace up your sleeve, since Florida, Texas, and Arizona are the ones I've seen talked about as being permissive by (lack of) government regulations for full self driving. In California I'm surrounded by safety first people, who won't allow it, until there is proof it is safe. I'm more in the permissive camp, and let lawsuits handle the safety issue.
 
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shrineofchance

she/her, they/them
Feb 10, 2021
80
88
Canada
It's an absolute non-story. Not a revelation at all. We've always known that FSD, when first released fleet-wide, would be SAE Level 2 (i.e. would require the driver to remain attentive). Tesla will not graduate FSD to SAE Level 3+ until it collects extensive data on safety from the fleet and talks to regulators first (I think, primarily, NHTSA). Elon has been repeating this like a broken record for years.
 
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paaltio

Member
Feb 16, 2019
50
33
Finland
So just curious how the forum feels, especially those Tesla owners who've already purchased the full self driving feature with the new revelation from Tesla to the California DMV..? Tesla Tells California DMV that FSD Is Not Capable of Autonomous Driving
I have not expected Tesla to take liability, i.e. go beyond L2, anytime soon. Of course right now it's clear the FSD Beta is not even L5 capable. But say it was on the cusp. There's still very little upside for hurrying to get L5 certified, but tremendous risks if something goes wrong.

This is why I think this DMV news was a lot of hot air, because anyone thinking they were in the process of getting an L5 system approved was not paying attention. Admittedly Elon's optimistic comments have steered expectations in that direction, but one look at an FSD Beta video and you can go "oh right well this is great but it's not being submitted for L5 right now".

Finally, you can have a fully L5-capable system that is still L2. And I think that's actually what Tesla is going for. L2 is a really good spot for them, as it funnily enough avoids many regulations, since mostly all you need to do is verify driver attention and intention. So at least here in the EU it helps them ship the features the fastest. I don't see them trying to go for L3 or L4 at all unless they clearly hit a local maximum again and just abandon their L5 future plans entirely.

So anyway I'd much rather have the full feature set quickly while holding my hand on the wheel, rather than wait years for the development, approval and legislation processes needed for actual L5, each of which will be onerous. Because years is quite obviously how much it will take here in the EU at least, even if they had an L5 system right now, today, to show to the regulators. And since they don't, you can add even more time.

So bring on the L2 FSD I say, despite the oxymoron.
 
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Dmagyar

Member
Aug 9, 2018
313
194
Rocklin, Ca. 95765
I'll be pleasantly surprised if this happens in the next 3 years for a small region. I see you are in Florida. You got an ace up your sleeve, since Florida, Texas, and Arizona are the ones I've seen talked about as being permissive by (lack of) government regulations for full self driving. In California I'm surrounded by safety first people, who won't allow it, until there is proof it is safe. I'm more in the permissive camp, and let lawsuits handle the safety issue.
Lawyers are going to luv it... Glad I’m not living in any of those trial by fire area’s... Don’t get me wrong, love the car and agree 100% with @mark95476 above on feature used but also glad I didn’t opt for the FSD...
 
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