"Full-Time" AWD Winter Mode

[StealthP3D]

I watched it again. Rears were spinning some but not like if they were locked. If that snow the hummer was driving In was unreasonable to get stuck in why didn’t he drive the Tesla all over it showing off it’s superior snow ability? He didn’t because he would have also gotten stuck.

I would say if the hummer was really stuck the front end was barely high centered and the Tesla nudged it just enough. But it looks more like the hummer didn’t full lock until it got “pulled out”. Tesla’s have exceptional straight like traction but that video was dramatized to some level for sure. Anyway didn’t Tesla give that guy a free model X?

Well, you can interpret it that way if it fits your desired narrative. I know what I saw. And the Hummer driver was humiliated having to be extracted by a Tesla. The Model X is not a light vehicle and the Norwegian had some really grippy winter tires on there that were getting way more traction than those studded tires.

But if it makes you feel better, you can believe it was all staged because the Norwegian had enough referrals to get a free car. I know it was real.

 

[svp6]

+1 from me on the need to improve traction control in snow / ice. We have a slight uphill curved road getting home, the model 3 always fishtails there, under all circumstances (constant 10 / 20 / 30 mph speed in chill mode) despite the Tesla winter tires (Pirelli Sottozero). We only had AWD cars over last 10 years, none of them did this - including my previous P85D. I do not think this is dangerous at low speeds, but it is most definitely unsettling. My wife is concerned though of something similar happening at highway speeds should we hit an ice patch, so for now we drive only the MB 4Matic for any trips in snowy conditions.

What is notably better on the P3D vs LR RWD we had before is the ability to drive in deeper snow. Still though not as good as other cars.

 

[Big Earl]

As a driver, I enjoy that the dual motor Model 3 is a little tail happy. There is definitely a high “pucker factor” for rear seat passengers and folks who aren’t used to a car getting a little sideways. It’s very different from an automatic transmission Subaru and other vehicles that will reliably understeer instead of oversteering.

That said, the 3 only gets about 15° out of line before it catches itself, so I haven’t felt unsafe in it, even on half-worn MXM4s. I want track mode and snow tires.

 

[StealthP3D]

Second the hummer is on studded M/T tires NOT studded winter tires. Huge lugs, look like something on the lines of a swamper. He mentions the hard rubber compound, yes that’s because they are mud tires.

I'm pretty sure after suffering humiliation at the tow strap of that Tesla driver, the Hummer owner is going to go out and buy some good studless winter tires as soon as his studs wear out. Or sell his Hummer and buy a Tesla.

 

[coleAK]

I'm pretty sure after suffering humiliation at the tow strap of that Tesla driver, the Hummer owner is going to go out and buy some good studless winter tires as soon as his studs wear out. Or sell his Hummer and buy a Tesla.

Why would he be humiliated? The guy in the Tesla didn’t even attempt the deep snow. It wasn’t like he was driving circles around him. And in deep untracked snow big, wide, high volume MT tires on bead locks and aired down to ~10 psi are the best. Or arctic truck tires like Hakka 44’s you need to increase surface area and float. And that hummer had junk tires. Hakka LT2 35” aired down to 10-15 psi would have been an entire differant story.

Off road if I pull out triple locked Rubicons and LC 80s all summer in my LX. Is it humiliating to them? No, because chances are they are driving a more difficult line. I go pretty hard off road but tend to avoid rock crawling and deep mud.

I pulled a model X (and 2 Subaru’s) out of the ditch in front of my house first snow this past fall. None were humiliated, all were extremely thankful.

 

[StealthP3D]

Why would he be humiliated?

Because Hummer owners like to be "top dog", tough and independent. They don't want to have to be rescued by an EV!

 

[coleAK]

Because Hummer owners like to be "top dog", tough and independent. They don't want to have to be rescued by an EV!

That’s a pretty general assumption. All the off road guys I know (many who I hunt with) brag about being pulled out. They look at it on the lines of pushing their rigs to the limit. I always feel like the Jeep wrangler crowd are proud of breaking things for the same reason.

As for getting pulled out in the snow. If you drive in the winter long enough it’s going to happen. It’s happend to me twice over the last 20 years. One time I had to put it in a snow bank to avoid getting head on’ed. The other time (ironically for this discussion) I was in a Humvee. Both times I was thankful for some help.

 

[StealthP3D]

That’s a pretty general assumption. All the off road guys I know (many who I hunt with) brag about being pulled out.

Yes, but not by an EV. Or maybe worse, a Prius?

AWD Tesla's with studless winter tires have very impressive pulling power on packed snow.

 

[coleAK]

Yes, but not by an EV. Or maybe worse, a Prius?

AWD Tesla's with studless winter tires have very impressive pulling power on packed snow.

You’re still assuming a lot. And you all know what my DI always said about when you assume... ASS-U-ME

Also most of the people I’ve ever pulled out with my Lexus LX570 think of it along the same lines as an EV or Prius. Because it’s a Lexus and made in Japan. And they were still thankful.

 

[StealthP3D]

A hummer owner will still thank whoever rescued them, even if it's the most humiliating thing in the world. That's about all they can say when an AWD Tesla pulls them out silently and cleanly as if they didn't even break a sweat.

 

[PremiumPackage]

Count me in as one not impressed with the winter handling. Yes traction control has been pretty good, but as compared to my AWD Volvos (they know something about snow, eh?) it could do better. In icy conditions I don't want pucker factor, I want the car going where I point the front wheels.

 

[StealthP3D]

Count me in as one not impressed with the winter handling. Yes traction control has been pretty good, but as compared to my AWD Volvos (they know something about snow, eh?) it could do better. In icy conditions I don't want pucker factor, I want the car going where I point the front wheels.

My wife's family owns a Volvo dealership. I've owned two Volvos and driven a lot of new Volvo's from the dealership (my elderly father-in-law gets a new AWD Volvo every 6,000 miles). And if it's dark, icy or snowy, I'm the one driving them. Volvo's electronic traction and stability systems were the best in the business back in 1999 (one of the reasons Ford bought them). But that was two decades ago and two owners ago. IMO, Tesla has surpassed them. I'm not sure if Tesla has better programming, higher resolution wheel sensors or if it's simply an advantage only an EV can have with instant torque and no transmission to contend with but the Tesla gets better traction when traction is scarce and corners far more precisely when using individual wheel braking to help hold your line. The Volvo's are more "intermittent" in that the cycling of the brake applications is slower and cruder. I can't even feel the Tesla cycling the brakes, it's more progressive, less on-off. This makes the Model 3 quite a bit better when it's really slick, IMO.

What kind of winter tires are you running?

 

[Jeeps17]

One more data point from Quebec. Our family drives two Teslas, a RWD P85 S (2013) and a 90D X (2016). I've had my share of winter "pucker moments" with the P85 over the years (especially going up hills - and with excellent winter tires), but the X has been rock solid. I have no personal experience with the Model 3 yet.

However, a colleague of mine just got an AWD 3 a few months ago. She previously drove an AWD Audi A3 and her husband drives a Subaru WRX. Both are experienced drivers used to harsh Quebec winters (with snow / ice / slush for 4-6 months out of the year).

BOTH have mentioned to me that the AWD in the Model 3 is "okay" but subjectively inferior to their ICE counterparts, with perceived moments of instability rapidly corrected by the ESC, but still perceived (this more often than in their other vehicles). This reflects exactly what patp posted earlier in the thread.

I would encourage owners driving 3's in winter climes that have noticed this to contact Tesla or Elon (on Twitter and via MyTesla), it can't hurt to report these findings.

I think a winter mode is a fantastic idea if the general idea for the Model 3 is to preserve the RWD bias for driving enjoyment in non-winter conditions. Use when needed only.

 

[EVDRVN]

+1 for a winter mode. My 85D blows away my 3AWD and the 3 should be better than an ICE. I suggest everyone contact Tesla on this, on a sharp narrow road this could be an issue and there should be a snow or winter mode because of this.

 

[StealthP3D]

One more data point from Quebec. Our family drives two Teslas, a RWD P85 S (2013) and a 90D X (2016). I've had my share of winter "pucker moments" with the P85 over the years (especially going up hills - and with excellent winter tires), but the X has been rock solid. I have no personal experience with the Model 3 yet.

However, a colleague of mine just got an AWD 3 a few months ago. She previously drove an AWD Audi A3 and her husband drives a Subaru WRX. Both are experienced drivers used to harsh Quebec winters (with snow / ice / slush for 4-6 months out of the year).

BOTH have mentioned to me that the AWD in the Model 3 is "okay" but subjectively inferior to their ICE counterparts, with perceived moments of instability rapidly corrected by the ESC, but still perceived (this more often than in their other vehicles). This reflects exactly what patp posted earlier in the thread.

I would encourage owners driving 3's in winter climes that have noticed this to contact Tesla or Elon (on Twitter and via MyTesla), it can't hurt to report these findings.

I think a winter mode is a fantastic idea if the general idea for the Model 3 is to preserve the RWD bias for driving enjoyment in non-winter conditions. Use when needed only.

I agree the Model 3 is "looser" when under excessive throttle on slick surfaces. But only if you're requesting considerably more torque than the available traction will allow. Other cars completely cut any power above that amount and that has aggravated most snow/ice drivers ever since the first TC systems were released. There is no bigger let down than the sudden and abrupt cutting of power. Tesla has improved upon the traditional way that traction control is applied by being very precise and sensitive at low torque requests but giving you a little more torque if you really ask for it. This has obvious advantages for skilled drivers and also for beginners (because if they ask for too much power the TC doesn't mask the extreme slipperiness). Most inexperienced or timid ice/snow drivers will go "wow, it's really slippery" and will naturally give smaller throttle inputs. And yes, if you ask for too much it will let you know besides just feeling like a dead fish which is how TC has typically been implemented (and why it's gotten such a bad rap from experienced snow/ice drivers).

I'm not saying everyone will prefer Tesla's implementation but, IMHO, it's ground-breaking and a great compromise between handing you a dead fish and full-on track mode. Certainly, they could offer the ability to mimic traditional TC for those drivers who are uncomfortable with any slippage and who might not have very sensitive throttle control. It would be very easy to implement a "no slip" mode. Then if it's too slippery it will just act like there is no thrust and you won't spin or move up the hill.

 

[coleAK]

One more data point from Quebec. Our family drives two Teslas, a RWD P85 S (2013) and a 90D X (2016). I've had my share of winter "pucker moments" with the P85 over the years (especially going up hills - and with excellent winter tires), but the X has been rock solid. I have no personal experience with the Model 3 yet.

However, a colleague of mine just got an AWD 3 a few months ago. She previously drove an AWD Audi A3 and her husband drives a Subaru WRX. Both are experienced drivers used to harsh Quebec winters (with snow / ice / slush for 4-6 months out of the year).

BOTH have mentioned to me that the AWD in the Model 3 is "okay" but subjectively inferior to their ICE counterparts, with perceived moments of instability rapidly corrected by the ESC, but still perceived (this more often than in their other vehicles). This reflects exactly what patp posted earlier in the thread.

I would encourage owners driving 3's in winter climes that have noticed this to contact Tesla or Elon (on Twitter and via MyTesla), it can't hurt to report these findings.

I think a winter mode is a fantastic idea if the general idea for the Model 3 is to preserve the RWD bias for driving enjoyment in non-winter conditions. Use when needed only.

I’ve reported my experience here in Alaska to Tesla. My recommendations: make “chill” normal, make “normal” sport, add “winter” that is: like “chill” but is more F/R 50/50 motor balanced, regen low , and ESC kicks in a little earlier. And for “slip start” simulate a CDL and spin front and rear motors at the same speed.

 

[EVDRVN]

I'm not saying everyone will prefer Tesla's implementation but, IMHO, it's ground-breaking and a great compromise between handing you a dead fish and full-on track mode. Certainly, they could offer the ability to mimic traditional TC for those drivers who are uncomfortable with any slippage and who might not have very sensitive throttle control. It would be very easy to implement a "no slip" mode. Then if it's too slippery it will just act like there is no thrust and you won't spin or move up the hill.

It's not ground breaking it's a step backward, a Model S will not do this and I can launch mine on mud without invasive power restriction, this is intentional with the oversight of adding a mode for snow driving. A winter mode should be added since more power goes to the PM motor by default. Even on wet conditions this is less desirable compared to my S which I can launch full throttle with no slippage under crazy conditions.

 

[StealthP3D]

+1 for a winter mode. My 85D blows away my 3AWD and the 3 should be better than an ICE. I suggest everyone contact Tesla on this, on a sharp narrow road this could be an issue and there should be a snow or winter mode because of this.

Here's the "sharp, narrow road" I drove today:

The Model 3 handled the layer of ice underneath a few inches of soft-packed snow beautifully. I only wish all the other cars on the road were as capable. That's the WSDOT AWD truck assigned to this section of highway, the snowiest road in WA State. Yes, it has winter tires, you need them here, you will notice he's sliding around a lot more than the Model 3 with lowly Sottozero 2's even though I'm catching up to him. After he pulled over to let me pass I picked up the pace, without getting crazy because it's a two-way road and you never know when someone is going to be sliding around a downhill corner and running wide. All the corners are completely blind due to the tall snowbanks and narrowness of the road.

Yes, the back end moves around a bit climbing the mountain under heavy throttle but it's all very predictable (and fun). The best snow car I've ever driven. The thing accelerates up difficult hills like it's on crack, even on uphill corners. I never felt a Volvo do that, the little Swede in the engine room says "that's all she's got Captain" because they are programmed to not slip at all, even if you press the accelerator deep. Lord help you if you need to go around an uphill corner! And what good is the title of "Captain" if the Swede in the engine room won't let you have as much as you need? The Model 3 can emulate that, just don't press the accelerator deep. But sometimes you need a little extra and the AWD Model 3 gives it to when you want it.

 

[EVDRVN]

Well if you think that's good try it in an 85D.

 

[StealthP3D]

And for “slip start” simulate a CDL and spin front and rear motors at the same speed.

Emulating a CLD would be worse than what they have now, especially around corners. And it would still rely upon left and right braking to manage the open differentials, but it already uses the brakes to hand power off as needed which is better than blindly grinding away at the same speed front/back. That's why it climbs like a bat outta hell!