"Full-Time" AWD Winter Mode

[Kuzma]

Okay I created an account to chime in on this thread. For background, I've been driving my AWD 3 all winter here in Minnesota on the stock all-season tires inflated to 45 psi, so definitely far from ideal conditions. But we also have practically no elevation, so it's all about g forces.

My Takeaways:

1. The wiggle is no big deal. I agree it's disconcerting until you get used to it, but once you do, you'll notice the car recovers from a minor wiggle 100% of the time.
2. A little practice on an empty road shows that, even driving fairly aggressively on very slick packed snow/ice, the car generally goes where you point it. It'll wiggle a little to get there, but it'll recover and go.
3. The 3 absolutely overdrives the back axle in ways it shouldn't in snow. If the road is slippery enough I can reliably kick it into significant oversteer by just accelerating into a turn. To its credit, even minimal effort to regain control almost instantly recovers, but that's not good default behavior, especially when its straight-line acceleration is so smooth and well controlled.
4. Now that I know how to cause it and how to recover, I do it on purpose sometimes for fun. I would love to have the option to keep driving that way, but I agree with other posters here that the default behavior in winter should be more rooted.
5. There's really no reason the car shouldn't be able to determine based on temperature and how often it's limiting throttle for traction sake that the roads are slippery and it's time to switch to snow mode. Performance on dry pavement should be unaffected.

Tesla should improve this, but in the mean time, the car is way more stable and sure-footed than it seems. Get a feel for it and then enjoy the ride!

 

[ConcordeSST]

Okay I created an account to chime in on this thread. For background, I've been driving my AWD 3 all winter here in Minnesota on the stock all-season tires inflated to 45 psi, so definitely far from ideal conditions. But we also have practically no elevation, so it's all about g forces.

My Takeaways:

1. The wiggle is no big deal. I agree it's disconcerting until you get used to it, but once you do, you'll notice the car recovers from a minor wiggle 100% of the time.
2. A little practice on an empty road shows that, even driving fairly aggressively on very slick packed snow/ice, the car generally goes where you point it. It'll wiggle a little to get there, but it'll recover and go.
3. The 3 absolutely overdrives the back axle in ways it shouldn't in snow. If the road is slippery enough I can reliably kick it into significant oversteer by just accelerating into a turn. To its credit, even minimal effort to regain control almost instantly recovers, but that's not good default behavior, especially when its straight-line acceleration is so smooth and well controlled.
4. Now that I know how to cause it and how to recover, I do it on purpose sometimes for fun. I would love to have the option to keep driving that way, but I agree with other posters here that the default behavior in winter should be more rooted.
5. There's really no reason the car shouldn't be able to determine based on temperature and how often it's limiting throttle for traction sake that the roads are slippery and it's time to switch to snow mode. Performance on dry pavement should be unaffected.

Tesla should improve this, but in the mean time, the car is way more stable and sure-footed than it seems. Get a feel for it and then enjoy the ride!

Well hello fellow MN driver (join us here if you haven't already)! Yes, since my initial post I've had the chance to feel the wiggle on empty streets and I've noticed that you are right, it doesn't lose control, it just feels like it might. Still disconcerting since I'm never 100% sure it won't, but I'm getting more used to it.

 

[Big Earl]

Okay I created an account to chime in on this thread. For background, I've been driving my AWD 3 all winter here in Minnesota on the stock all-season tires inflated to 45 psi, so definitely far from ideal conditions. But we also have practically no elevation, so it's all about g forces.

My Takeaways:

1. The wiggle is no big deal. I agree it's disconcerting until you get used to it, but once you do, you'll notice the car recovers from a minor wiggle 100% of the time.
2. A little practice on an empty road shows that, even driving fairly aggressively on very slick packed snow/ice, the car generally goes where you point it. It'll wiggle a little to get there, but it'll recover and go.
3. The 3 absolutely overdrives the back axle in ways it shouldn't in snow. If the road is slippery enough I can reliably kick it into significant oversteer by just accelerating into a turn. To its credit, even minimal effort to regain control almost instantly recovers, but that's not good default behavior, especially when its straight-line acceleration is so smooth and well controlled.
4. Now that I know how to cause it and how to recover, I do it on purpose sometimes for fun. I would love to have the option to keep driving that way, but I agree with other posters here that the default behavior in winter should be more rooted.
5. There's really no reason the car shouldn't be able to determine based on temperature and how often it's limiting throttle for traction sake that the roads are slippery and it's time to switch to snow mode. Performance on dry pavement should be unaffected.

Tesla should improve this, but in the mean time, the car is way more stable and sure-footed than it seems. Get a feel for it and then enjoy the ride!

Welcome. Excellent summary of the situation. My experiences on stock all-seasons in Mid-West snow, both fresh and packed, are similar to yours.

 

[SanJuan]

My Model 3 AWD seems noticeably rear-wheel biased during general driving, I assume they're doing it for efficiency's sake. I'll be driving along in winter with greasy snow and the rear end will slide around quite easily. When rear slip occurs the front motor will kick in quickly and correct the vehicle, but it is unsettling. I would gladly take a temporary range hit to enter a Winter mode for a more planted feel, more aggressively using the front motor. Perhaps it's just me coming from a Suburu and Ford Escape that are front-wheel biased when not engaging both axles, never driven a RWD car. I have Chill Mode and Low Regen modes on, Michelin X-ICE XI3s, but I'm still driving around much more cautiously then my previous vehicles.

I live in snowy and cold SW colorado and your experience matches exactly the ice/snow performance of my M3 AWD. Definite bias to rear motor which sacrifices true AWD performance. I agree a winter driving mode that uses the front motor in a more systmetrical mode should improve performance. My MX is perfect on extreme conditions - so Tesla knows how to do it. Please Tesla come out with winter driving mode other wise would not recommend M3AWD for winter climates since it is unstable in current implementations.

 

[Daniel in SD]

Drove my Lexus GX in the snow the other day. It’s got a 50/50 torque split Torsen center differential. I must say I prefer 50/50 torque bias to rear bias in the snow. You can get the thing into a nice four wheel drift without the nannies going crazy. I think it’s more fun than having the computer “wiggle” the car around turns.

 

[mswlogo]

Okay I created an account to chime in on this thread. For background, I've been driving my AWD 3 all winter here in Minnesota on the stock all-season tires inflated to 45 psi, so definitely far from ideal conditions. But we also have practically no elevation, so it's all about g forces.

My Takeaways:

1. The wiggle is no big deal. I agree it's disconcerting until you get used to it, but once you do, you'll notice the car recovers from a minor wiggle 100% of the time.
2. A little practice on an empty road shows that, even driving fairly aggressively on very slick packed snow/ice, the car generally goes where you point it. It'll wiggle a little to get there, but it'll recover and go.
3. The 3 absolutely overdrives the back axle in ways it shouldn't in snow. If the road is slippery enough I can reliably kick it into significant oversteer by just accelerating into a turn. To its credit, even minimal effort to regain control almost instantly recovers, but that's not good default behavior, especially when its straight-line acceleration is so smooth and well controlled.
4. Now that I know how to cause it and how to recover, I do it on purpose sometimes for fun. I would love to have the option to keep driving that way, but I agree with other posters here that the default behavior in winter should be more rooted.
5. There's really no reason the car shouldn't be able to determine based on temperature and how often it's limiting throttle for traction sake that the roads are slippery and it's time to switch to snow mode. Performance on dry pavement should be unaffected.

Tesla should improve this, but in the mean time, the car is way more stable and sure-footed than it seems. Get a feel for it and then enjoy the ride!

I’d prefer it not try to automatically figure it out.

Give me a knob or two

 

[Big Earl]

I can't wait for rock crawling mode in the Model 3.

 

[coleAK]

I’d prefer it not try to automatically figure it out.

Give me a knob or two

Modes would be nice. Tesla just please do more RnD than Jeep did with ^^^ sand mode overheats the viscous center diff in the sand... found that out the hard way, I had to tow my brothers GC trailhawk off the beach when it went into “limp” mode.

Drove my Lexus GX in the snow the other day. It’s got a 50/50 torque split Torsen center differential. I must say I prefer 50/50 torque bias to rear bias in the snow. You can get the thing into a nice four wheel drift without the nannies going crazy. I think it’s more fun than having the computer “wiggle” the car around turns.

My daily drives is an LX and I fully agree. I had a GX loaner for a couple months a few winters back (lexus dealer messed up a PM... bad) and the GX is even better then the LX on winter roads. I would have a GX if I didn’t tow a 7k lb camper.

 

[Oyinko]

I spent the last 2 weekends driving in winter conditions with my Model 3 performance. I mounted a set of 18'' TST forged wheels with Goodyear Assurance WeatherReady Tires. They are considered all seasons tires but have the 3 peak snowflake on the sidewall. For the record, I do have extensive experience driving on the snow with all sorts of vehicles (FWD, RWD, AWD...).

Overall, I find the Model 3 does exceptionally well on the snow. Yes you can feel the car loose traction when applying the throttle but it's immediately corrected by the onboard computer. Also with Chill mode, it's a bit more difficult to loose the rear.

While it might be fun and fine for me because I'm not scared, I believe it might bit a bit scary for other people and create a lack of confidence in the Model 3 abilities. Last but not least, what I find a bit curious is the way the car loose control when the car is set to Normal Regen. For most people, it can also create a lack of confidence when braking on snow.

So my first suggestion would be to create a "winter driving mode" shortcut that would automatically set acceleration to Chill and Regen to Low. It will be easier for people to understand than having to change 2 settings because most people people don't RTFM. The car could also automatically prompt it when it detects snow or icy roads.

Last but not least, Tesla could also decide to apply more torque to the front wheels when it detects the car going up on an incline.

 

[StealthP3D]

Overall, I find the Model 3 does exceptionally well on the snow. Yes you can feel the car loose traction when applying the throttle but it's immediately corrected by the onboard computer.

Another fan of the Model 3's winter handling. And a P3D owner. Coincidence? I'm beginning to wonder if the P3D doesn't come with more "expert" winter driving dynamics in terms of software? I've never driven a regular AWD so I can't say. But I have noticed a lot of people with the regular AWD report a lack of confidence when driving on snow/ice compared to P3D owners.

Also with Chill mode, it's a bit more difficult to loose the rear.

I've been experimenting with Chill Mode in various snow/ice conditions all winter. I agree, you have to push the accelerator deeper when in Chill Mode to effect the same amount of slippage, but you also need to push the accelerator deeper to effect the same amount of acceleration. Chill Mode simply remaps the throttle. And it's difficult to tell definitively, but it sure seems like it might be adding in throttle delay, much like you might get with an ICE car. If you give it a sudden throttle increase it feels like it ramps up that command over time. In any case, it makes me feel much more disconnected from the throttle and I don't like it or find it useful. It feels like there is a rubber band down there, lol! One of the best things about the Model 3 winter driving dynamics is the direct throttle control. I want consistent throttle control and the re-mapping that Chill Mode does just makes the experience less consistent and is one more thing to learn. I know a lot of people find it useful, I'm just sharing my experience. I've tried to like it or make good use of it in a number of different conditions but, the more I experiment with it, the more I dislike it. I have zero issues with the regular acceleration mode, I just use smaller throttle inputs when on snow/ice and the more direct feeling of control increases my confidence and consistency.

Last but not least, what I find a bit curious is the way the car loose control when the car is set to Normal Regen. For most people, it can also create a lack of confidence when braking on snow.

I think you meant "lose control"? Or did you mean regen braking control feels "loose"?

My observations are that the traction control (or anti-slide properties) built into regen braking is/are not as precise as the same properties built into the anti-lock friction brakes. For example, when entering a slippery, downhill hairpin corner using regen braking (in Standard Mode), the slide feels "mushy" as the regen is dialed back on each axle independently to prevent loss of control (but not dialed back so much to stop the "mushy" slide completely) and automatic light applications of the friction brakes are used to maintain directional control. It all feels very nebulous but the way it maintains directional control is consistently excellent. This feels very disconcerting at first because it's different than what we are accustomed to and it might not provide enough deceleration as it dials back regen to avoid loss of control. Friction braking allows more speed to be scrubbed off faster and feels more precise.

But here's why I've settled on leaving regen on "High". As soon as I get on the friction brakes, regen gets dialed way back and it feels like it's all anti-lock braking. So, while it feels like the wrong thing to reach for the friction brakes while already sliding, it will actually give you even more deceleration and more control. By leaving regen on high, I still have the option to reach for the friction brakes should I need them, but I probably won't have to in normal driving. I love the one footed driving at normal, sane speeds. If I were racing in the snow/ice I would use low regen so I could get on the friction brakes sooner (and brake harder) but in normal driving "Standard Regen" allows me to not use the friction brakes, I just feather the regen braking using the accelerator to avoid heavy sliding. If the regen can't provide enough deceleration, it's a simple matter to reach for the friction brakes. I would also use "Low Regen" on super slick surfaces like glaze ice (and this is probably why Tesla instructs to use "Low Regen" on all snow/ice). I think Tesla has blended the hand-off between regen and friction braking perfectly (at least in all the slippery conditions I've tried it in) although it does feel a lot different from the normal way we are accustomed to driving on slippery, frozen surfaces.

So my first suggestion would be to create a "winter driving mode" shortcut that would automatically set acceleration to Chill and Regen to Low. It will be easier for people to understand than having to change 2 settings because most people people don't RTFM.

I think that could be useful, but only if the "Chill Mode" was modified to simple throttle remapping. There is no place for throttle input delays on snow and ice (and that is what Chill Mode appears to do in addition to throttle re-mapping).

Last but not least, Tesla could also decide to apply more torque to the front wheels when it detects the car going up on an incline.

I'm not convinced that people who think they want front-biased AWD understand the ramifications. The way it's tuned now uses the front of the car as a "safety anchor". I've driven AWD cars that are more front-biased and when climbing a slippery hill, the front wheels slip first or at the same time as the rears. This means when climbing a hill at the threshold of traction, the kind of hill that you may or may not be able to make it up, the crown or camber of the road dictates where the car will end up. Yes, a skilled driver knows how to deal with this and will stop attempting to climb before they slide off the side of the road but there is very little directional control, particularly if the front wheels are slipping before the rear. Tesla has provided a rear-biased AWD that maintains directional control by using the front as an anchor. The back end may wiggle left or right but nothing a little counter-steering won't keep in check (which is intuitive for all but the most beginning drivers).

Experienced drivers prefer rear wheel bias in the snow/ice which is why the performance arm of Volvo, Polestar, has developed software upgrades for AWD Volvo's to address complaints that they are too front-biased. More info about the benefits of rear-biased AWD here:

Polestar software upgrade delivers more rear-wheel torque in all-wheel drive Volvos

As a side note, I can guarantee that, had Tesla delivered a front-biased AWD, it would have been ruthlessly attacked in the media and by winter drivers all over. No matter how Tesla tunes their cars, they are attacked as if they don't know what they are doing.

 

[Daniel in SD]

Experienced drivers prefer rear wheel bias in the snow/ice which is why the performance arm of Volvo, Polestar, has developed software upgrades for AWD Volvo's to address complaints that they are too front-biased. More info about the benefits of rear-biased AWD here:

The Polestar model is optimized for dry weather performance! Rear bias AWD is for performance in high traction conditions where you can get weight transfer to the rear wheels. Balanced AWD will give you the fastest acceleration in slippery conditions. I don't think anyone wants front biased AWD...

 

[Daniel in SD]

Experienced drivers prefer rear wheel bias in the snow/ice which is why the performance arm of Volvo, Polestar, has developed software upgrades for AWD Volvo's to address complaints that they are too front-biased. More info about the benefits of rear-biased AWD here:

Also it should be pointed out:

The AWD optimisation is engaged simply by selecting the Dynamic drive mode, or when Electronic Stability Control is disengaged.

The RWD bias is a mode! A mode that you would use for spirited driving on dry roads or when you want to do donuts in the snow.

 

[StealthP3D]

Balanced AWD will give you the fastest acceleration in slippery conditions. I don't think anyone wants front biased AWD...

At the expense of directional control. I'm pretty impressed with the P3D acceleration on snow/ice.You can get into trouble really quickly on a road covered in a layer of hard, smooth ice simply by punching it for a second or two. I don't think it gives up much acceleration because the traction control computers transfer more power to the front as the rear starts becoming traction limited.

 

[StealthP3D]

The RWD bias is a mode! A mode that you would use for spirited driving on dry roads or when you want to do donuts in the snow.

Not necessarily only for doing donuts in the snow (how boring anyway). Rear bias just provides more control when driving near the limit regardless of the amount of traction. I get what you're saying about faster launches when the weight transfers to the rear on a high traction surface but that is not all it's good for. It's about driving dynamics in all conditions.

 

[bedoig]

There's an interesting thread over on M3OC about decoding CAN for the Model 3. Things have been developing quickly over the last several weeks but all of the data has been from RWD cars until just recently. Someone with an AWD car just pulled some data showing that the front motor only comes online when a lot of power is requested. That would make sense with the rear motor being more efficient and aligns with the comments in this thread too. Basically you're driving a rear wheel drive car unless slip is detected (conjecture) or you request a lot of torque.

 

[StealthP3D]

Basically you're driving a rear wheel drive car unless slip is detected (conjecture) or you request a lot of torque.

Judging only by the driving dynamics on ice and snow, IMO, that is not true. It feels like the front wheels are lightly driven under mild acceleration, even when the rear is not slipping. It takes energy to get the front wheels turning. In a RWD car, the front wheels are not driven, they are a net drag on acceleration. This causes the rear drive wheels to slip easier because the traction from the rear must be used to get the front tires turning when trying to accelerate. On very slippery surfaces, this is a big deal.

I don't play around with decoding CAN messages but I imagine a zero torque request might still cause the front drive to be powered simply so it doesn't have negative torque (being driven by the rear wheels). This is a big deal and probably why the AWD Model 3 drives so well on a sheet of ice.

 

[coleAK]

Not necessarily only for doing donuts in the snow (how boring anyway). Rear bias just provides more control when driving near the limit regardless of the amount of traction. I get what you're saying about faster launches when the weight transfers to the rear on a high traction surface but that is not all it's good for. It's about driving dynamics in all conditions.

I hate to bring it up again but really you have no idea what you are talking about. Have you ever raced real cars (Xbox dosnt count)? SCCA, ralley, PCCA, ice, carts, ...?

Breaking loose the rear end is never good even in motor sport racing. Since you are talking about limits: The goal to drive fast in motor racing is to accelerate the car in the INTENDED direction as hard as possible.

WRC ralley cars are ~50/50 most of the time.
He isn’t drifting:

 

[coleAK]

There's an interesting thread over on M3OC about decoding CAN for the Model 3. Things have been developing quickly over the last several weeks but all of the data has been from RWD cars until just recently. Someone with an AWD car just pulled some data showing that the front motor only comes online when a lot of power is requested. That would make sense with the rear motor being more efficient and aligns with the comments in this thread too. Basically you're driving a rear wheel drive car unless slip is detected (conjecture) or you request a lot of torque.

This makes sense. At times the model 3 reminds me of the first new car I purchased, a 1990 Subaru Legacy. I have many other cars but kept it for a long time as a “beater”. Anyway when it got older going uphill on extremely slick surfaces I could feel the front wheels spin then feel the real wheels get power, there was that split second lag that felt “jerkey”. It was not seemless, similar to the feel of the 3 on similar conditions, rears slip then front grabs. Again it’s really only on the slickest surface like sub zero compressed clear ice that it happens and I can feel it. Our 3 on Hakka 9’s feels like it’s on rails on snow and pretty much all other conditions.

 

[StealthP3D]

Breaking loose the rear end is never good even in motor sport racing. Since you are talking about limits: The goal to drive fast in motor racing is to accelerate the car in the INTENDED direction as hard as possible.

That was a great video, winter rally driving has come a long way since I used to watch it in the 1980's-90's. Simply awesome! Now I don't know how they set their cars up (and it doesn't matter because the Model 3 is not a winter rally racer, it's a car for public roads) but the talented driver in your video most definitely breaks the rear end free as a matter of course. Did you even listen to his interview? He said you must point the front of the car towards the inside of the turn which allows the rear end of the car to ride along the outside snowbank. Doing this, he said, allows incredibly fast corner speeds.

So exactly, how is he not "breaking the rear end loose" if he's dragging the rear end around the corner by rubbing it on the outside snowbank? You can't do that until you've broken the rear end free. But Model 3 drivers are not winter rally drivers, we are driving on public roads (and hopefully enjoying it).

You could learn a lot if you have $3-6K to spend on the winter driving school mentioned in this article:

New generation of cars shows all-wheel drive doesn’t have to be boring

Even if you don't want to spend that kind of money, please read the article, you will learn a lot about why people are willing to spend so much money to own them. These are cars that people spend $100,000 and up because they are driving enthusiasts and want good driving dynamics, yes, especially in the winter. No, they are not purpose-built race cars, they are fun performance cars for driving enthusiasts. If you spend the money you can drive some of them on the ice in Grimli, at AMG's Ice Driving School.

If you want a boring AWD car, they are a dime a dozen. The Model 3 was not conceived as a boring car, it was conceived as a car that would please driving enthusiasts. I think they have succeeded spectacularly, particularly in winter conditions. Please don't try to ruin it, just tell your wife she should sell the Model 3 and buy one of those boring cars.

 

[Daniel in SD]

That was a great video, winter rally driving has come a long way since I used to watch it in the 1980's-90's. Simply awesome! Now I don't know how they set their cars up (and it doesn't matter because the Model 3 is not a winter rally racer, it's a car for public roads) but the talented driver in your video most definitely breaks the rear end free as a matter of course. Did you even listen to his interview? He said you must point the front of the car towards the inside of the turn which allows the rear end of the car to ride along the outside snowbank. Doing this, he said, allows incredibly fast corner speeds.

So exactly, how is he not "breaking the rear end loose" if he's dragging the rear end around the corner by rubbing it on the outside snowbank? You can't do that until you've broken the rear end free. But Model 3 drivers are not winter rally drivers, we are driving on public roads (and hopefully enjoying it).

You could learn a lot if you have $3-6K to spend on the winter driving school mentioned in this article:

New generation of cars shows all-wheel drive doesn’t have to be boring

Even if you don't want to spend that kind of money, please read the article, you will learn a lot about why people are willing to spend so much money to own them. These are cars that people spend $100,000 and up because they are driving enthusiasts and want good driving dynamics, yes, especially in the winter. No, they are not purpose-built race cars, they are fun performance cars for driving enthusiasts. If you spend the money you can drive some of them on the ice in Grimli, at AMG's Ice Driving School.

If you want a boring AWD car, they are a dime a dozen. The Model 3 was not conceived as a boring car, it was conceived as a car that would please driving enthusiasts. I think they have succeeded spectacularly, particularly in winter conditions. Please don't try to ruin it, just tell your wife she should sell the Model 3 and buy one of those boring cars.

E63 also has modes! Yes, there is a "drift mode" to send 100% of the torque to the rear wheels. I bet the default comfort mode is 50/50 torque split.