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General Discussion: 2018 Investor Roundtable

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What do people think of the fact that not a single person (analyst, bear, or bull) believes Elon's projections? Not only that, but everyone, almost without exception (I don't know of any exceptions), heavily discounts everything Elon says.

What does this fact mean to investors?

everyone? everyone heavily discounts everything Elon says?

"Everything" Elon says must be incredibly mind warping, because, over the past 15 years, no one on the planet has delivered more than he has, and, if Elon stays healthy, I'm very confident the same will be true for the next 15 years.
 
everyone? everyone heavily discounts everything Elon says?

"Everything" Elon says must be incredibly mind warping, because, over the past 15 years, no one on the planet has delivered more than he has, and, if Elon stays healthy, I'm very confident the same will be true for the next 15 years.

Yes, I don't normally speak in absolutes, and I interact with hundreds of bulls and bears and listen/read to many analysts.

I personally do not know a single soul who does not heavily discount everything Elon says, so if not everyone, it's pretty damn close to the point that it’s become a running joke. He even has a time zone named after him.
 
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Yes, I don't normally speak in absolutes, and I interact with hundreds of bulls and bears and listen/read to many analysts.

I personally do not know a single soul who does not heavily discount everything Elon says, so if not everyone, it's pretty damn close to the point that it’s become a running joke. He even has a time zone named after him.

Damn!! D Grapes are Sour ;)
 
This is a BS excuse. Everyone in a professional settings knows that they need to evaluate the likelihood of their partners meeting their promises when planning ahead.

Not a direct response to you schonelucht, but more my musings on the growing frustration on this thread with Elon's ability/inability to meet his own timelines.

Most of us have seen the failure of both professional and personal relationships because one party is unreliable. I fully agree that we need to be able to base our decisions and plans on what people tell us. Elon knows this. Even though Elon is very careful to clarify that his aspirational goals are NOT promises, he knows he pays a toll when he misses these targets.

Some people think that Elon is careless with these "aspirational" goals; I do not see it that way. After GM's EV-1 debacle, most people had lost hope that the auto industry would produce an efficient alternative to ICE; we were teased with BEVs, but only reaching scale "in 20 years." Most of us were convinced that legacy auto, in conjunction with big oil, had no near-term plans for sustainability. Similarly, after the Apollo era, the world almost completely lost interest in space, in large part b/c we lost confidence in NASA; its goals were so far in the future so as to become meaningless. Elon planned the 'greenhouse on Mars' idea because, as he said, he "thought we had lost the will to explore. But I was wrong. People did not think there was a way. If people do not think there is a way, then they'll give up." I am fairly certain that this conclusion of Elon's has affected his approach to both SpaceX and to Tesla. Success requires not only a viable engineering solution for reusable rockets and for BEVs, but it also requires the ability to convince people that there is hope - that there is a way to bring these plans to fruition. People need to be able to see a path to success. A crewed mission to Mars "in the 2030s" or a mass market zero emission vehicle in "two decades" are non-starters.

Bears liken Elon to PT Barnum. I prefer a comparison with a controversial historical figure with a more positive connotation, Winston Churchill. Churchill had a brief window of opportunity at the beginning of WWII to fan the British political will to fight against seemingly overwhelming odds. Like Churchill, Elon's optimism is intended to stir people, not to deceive them.

I think that it is not unreasonable to view 'sustainable energy' and 'humanity as spacefaring civilization' as being of potential existential import. Just as Churchill had a brief window in which to succeed, Elon has repeatedly voiced his belief that there may only be a brief time in history in which to tackle energy and space travel, before political or economic or natural factors close that window of opportunity.

It is within this high-stakes context that Elon functions. He leads businesses that he feels address potential existential threats. In order to compete with legacy-auto, big-oil and aerospace industries, he needs to convince people (engineers and consumers alike) that "there is a way." If he is too timid, he cannot harness the latent enthusiasm in people. Conversely, as has been pointed out, if he becomes viewed as completely unreliable, he will eventually lack the support necessary to succeed. I believe that he is aware of this peril on either side. Certainly, as many others have noted, optimism is both Elon's strength as well as his Achilles heel. To temper the potential downside of that innate optimism, Elon is unusually intelligent and has an unusual ability to 'see into the future' in order to time his various endeavors (to use the Gretsky aphorism, "skating to where the puck will be").

I do not discount the frustration with Elon's track record of meeting his own goals. It is an all-too-present danger. I see that. But it is my opinion that Elon is shrewd, and he weighs this danger against the others. Ray Dalios, referring to our current social and economic situation, posed a question to his fellow panelists at Davos this month: if the balance is very difficult for central banks and the fed to get right, would you rather err on the side of letting the economy run a little too hot, or err on the side of raising rates too fast (with the implicit risks of social disorder in an increasingly populist world climate)? I suspect that Elon views his optimism a little like an economic stimulus package - tone it down too far, and the machine enters a negative feedback loop (I recognize that the converse is also true). A number of times he has sheepishly prefaced his aspirational goals by saying things like, 'I don't have a very good track record on this.' But he chooses to err on the optimistic side because it is this hope that keeps him going. Most of us have responded positively toward Elon not only because of his accomplishments, but also because he inspires us. If he can't get the optimism/realism balance quite right, most of us would rather that he err (slightly) on the side of optimism.

But I agree that it would be better to get the balance right, and at least half of the time to 'under promise and over deliver.'
 
Hi guys,

I’ve been creeping this forum for forever. Finally decided to make an account and get into the fun. What a week this has been. I’ve been in and out of Tesla several times over the last 4 years. I play leaps when the time is right. But got burnt by this last dip and decided to just go long. Sitting long and strong on a core position of almost 4000 shares. Do you guy recommend setting covered calls to scalp some of the IV?

Ps, I’m sure you guys are aware but Canada got their deliveries bumped up and looks like I’ll be getting delivery mid year. Hopefully the Ontario PCs if elected in the summer don’t get too crazy and get rid of the $14K EV credit before I get to take advantage.

-K
 
This has been a very bipolar week. Just a few days ago, the mood was euphoria after the successful Falcon Heavy launch, dual booster landing, and voyage of Roadster and Starman to beyond Mars. Then the conference call happened and many people became furious or depressed about Model 3.

My read on various forums is that people hit emotional bottom today.
 
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Yes, I don't normally speak in absolutes, and I interact with hundreds of bulls and bears and listen/read to many analysts.

I personally do not know a single soul who does not heavily discount everything Elon says, so if not everyone, it's pretty damn close to the point that it’s become a running joke. He even has a time zone named after him.

I to discount everything Elon says, but I also, at the exact same time, try to forecast what reality is and find that I woefully ill equipped to do so. I think someone smart enough could apply machine learning to promises made and promises delivered late and on time. Then you could just have the machine interpret. To me, I try to adjust large things by 6 months. Impossible things by 9 months to a year. Small things, I just dont pay to much attention to. So 2500, 5000 ramp should have always been seen as 6 months longer then Elon said originally. Something like Falcon Heavy or EAP features then FSD features 9 months to a year.

Elon is not dumb, he knows exactly what he is doing. I have thought more and more about this and the more I think about it the more I think its a recruitment tool. If you are a hot shot Aerospace, Manufacturing, Software or Materials engineer, you want to be doing something special and cutting edge and you are impatient because you are human, so you want to go some place where stuff happens at warp speed. This is Tesla and SpaceX. Things happen quickly, just not as quickly as Elon says they are going to happen, but he wants to cast a wide net for talent and so is aggressive. It motives current workers and it helps lure the best of the best.

Also, with all these departures. Has anything thought that these guys just couldnt cut it. Just ask @neroden how happy he is with Service. He is as big a supporter of Tesla as exists and he is pissed. From what I know of Service and Jon McNeill, I liked. But I have never had any real service issues and they are 5 miles from my work. There was also all that discounting on the 90Ds that made Tesla look bad. I have no idea the real cause and Jon seemed like one of the guys you want working for you but the fact is, that place is probably like working in a blast furnace sized pressure cooker and not everyone wants to do that for many many years and not many hold up under the pressure. The same could be said for many who have left recently. I personally would have loved that environment 10 years ago but not as much now that I have kids.

I dont want to dwell to much on why people leave because we will never know for sure and I dont want to disparage any one as it relates to performance and everyone has their own personal reasons, including work life balance. Jon is certainly moving up in terms of title though you might argue that Tesla has a chance to put Lyft out of business. Certainly like Lyft more then Uber.
 
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This has been a very bipolar week. Just a few days ago, the mood was euphoria after the successful Falcon Heavy launch, dual booster landing, and voyage of Roadster and Starman to beyond Mars. Then the conference call happened and many people became furious or depressed about Model 3.

My read on various forums is that people hit emotional bottom today.
Yes, highly elliptical orbit ... :D
 
after the Apollo era, the world almost completely lost interest in space, in large part b/c we lost confidence in NASA; its goals were so far in the future so as to become meaningless.'

Great post and very true on a personal level. After 2000 I started to have doubts about that Star Trek future. But Elon has given the future back to me. For that I am eternally grateful and will cut the dude some slack.
 
SEC filled today after market close from Tesla:

“The “2,000 to 2,500” units per week cited in this comment refers solely to the capacity of the additional automated battery module manufacturing equipment that is currently located in Germany, and not to Tesla’s total Model 3 production run rate or to the capacity of the automated battery module equipment that is already present at Gigafactory 1. Tesla’s ability to meet its target of 2,500 per week by end of Q1 2018 is not dependent on the additional equipment that is currently located in Germany, as that equipment is expected to start ramping production during Q2 2018. With respect to battery module production, Tesla’s ability to meet its target of 2,500 per week by end of Q1 2018 is dependent only on the equipment that is already present at Gigafactory 1, as well as the incremental capacity that is currently being added through the semi-automated lines that were also discussed during the conference call.”

Tesla clarifies comments about Model 3 production ramp – no need for new battery line for 2,500 units per week
 
SEC filled today after market close from Tesla:

“The “2,000 to 2,500” units per week cited in this comment refers solely to the capacity of the additional automated battery module manufacturing equipment that is currently located in Germany, and not to Tesla’s total Model 3 production run rate or to the capacity of the automated battery module equipment that is already present at Gigafactory 1. Tesla’s ability to meet its target of 2,500 per week by end of Q1 2018 is not dependent on the additional equipment that is currently located in Germany, as that equipment is expected to start ramping production during Q2 2018. With respect to battery module production, Tesla’s ability to meet its target of 2,500 per week by end of Q1 2018 is dependent only on the equipment that is already present at Gigafactory 1, as well as the incremental capacity that is currently being added through the semi-automated lines that were also discussed during the conference call.”

Tesla clarifies comments about Model 3 production ramp – no need for new battery line for 2,500 units per week

I need a translator to understand what Elon is trying to communicate. Someone to spend time with him 24/7, learn and master the AI language, and sit on the calls to dumb it down for me. Being a Tesla investor has been the most humbling experience of my life.
 
This has been a very bipolar week. Just a few days ago, the mood was euphoria after the successful Falcon Heavy launch, dual booster landing, and voyage of Roadster and Starman to beyond Mars. Then the conference call happened and many people became furious or depressed about Model 3.

My read on various forums is that people hit emotional bottom today.

My cure when I hit bottom, is to buy more shares. Then I can look at them at the end of the day, and it feels good that the price was up a couple dollars from when I bought them earlier in the day. That allows me to:
1. Pretend my dumb luck is pure genius
2. Blank out the fact the thousands of dollars I made on the new shares was only a tiny fraction of the tens of thousands lost on all the other shares. (If you're not winning, change the game;))
3. Now that I have more shares, dream about how much more the whole pile will be worth once we get to $400

Definitely not advice, but it sure works for me.
 
What do people think of the fact that not a single person (analyst, bear, or bull) believes Elon's projections? Not only that, but everyone, almost without exception (I don't know of any exceptions), heavily discounts everything Elon says.

What does this fact mean to investors?
It means now is a great time to short the stock! Elon has all the credibility of Trump. Stock values rise when there is trust, Elon's previous promises (especially capital requirements and delivery schedules) are rarely met.
 
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Tesla just filed a new 8-K, clarifying that the 2500/wk target doesn't depend on the equipment in Germany. That's what gets them to 5k in Q2
Tesla - Current Report

“[We] expect the new automated lines to arrive next month in March. And then it's already working in Germany so that’s going to be disassembled, brought out to the Gigafactory and reassembled and then go into operation at the Gigafactory. It's not a question whether it works or not. It's just a question of disassembly, transport and reassembly. So we expect to alleviate that constraint. With alleviating that constraint, that's what gets us to the roughly 2,000 to 2,500 unit per week production rate.”



The “2,000 to 2,500” units per week cited in this comment refers solely to the capacity of the additional automated battery module manufacturing equipment that is currently located in Germany, and not to Tesla’s total Model 3 production run rate or to the capacity of the automated battery module equipment that is already present at Gigafactory 1. Tesla’s ability to meet its target of 2,500 per week by end of Q1 2018 is not dependent on the additional equipment that is currently located in Germany, as that equipment is expected to start ramping production during Q2 2018. With respect to battery module production, Tesla’s ability to meet its target of 2,500 per week by end of Q1 2018 is dependent only on the equipment that is already present at Gigafactory 1, as well as the incremental capacity that is currently being added through the semi-automated lines that were also discussed during the conference call.

... Manna from Heaven :)
 
Tesla just filed a new 8-K, clarifying that the 2500/wk target doesn't depend on the equipment in Germany. That's what gets them to 5k in Q2
Tesla - Current Report


Am I the only one who actually believed that 2500/w was still on play by end of Q1 and 5000/w still on play by end of Q2 ? Even before that 8K?

I mean wtf, they repeated it at least 5 times during the EC, even if in the details they say something ambiguous they still repeat those numbers ...
Why do people here were frustrated ?
 
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