Welcome to Tesla Motors Club
Discuss Tesla's Model S, Model 3, Model X, Model Y, Cybertruck, Roadster and More.
Register

GM continues to try to stifle competition

This site may earn commission on affiliate links.
As all Indiana Tesla owners should now know, GM is pushing a bill in the state legislature to drive Tesla out. Current Indiana law does allow manufacturers to hold a dealer license, and the Tesla store in Indianapolis has been very successful. The current bill will strip away the ability for manufacturers to sell directly. I have already written to my state legislators and I would urge others to do so. GM can't compete on quality, performance or customer experience so they need to legislate away competition. I have owned 5 GM vehicles in my lifetime, but will never buy another, even if by some chance I do purchase another ICE.
 
So all the big car companies except GM are against the bill?

I find it hard to believe that a company with 17% of a market can override an entire industry.

Either that or every bad thing any automaker has ever been accused of is always GM.

No wonder why everyone who thinks so highly of Toyota doesn't understand why Toyota wants to stop the electric cars far more than GM. Do a little research on the actual quotes by Toyota management concerning EV's. They are way more against EV's than GM will ever be. Specifically Toyota says that BEVs are not practical, but they will build them as necessary to meet their compliance ratios.
 
Last edited:
Specifically Toyota says that BEVs are not practical, but they will build them as necessary to meet their compliance ratios.

That is not the whole story.

Toyota's point is that EV are an interim solution - they are still powered by nuclear, fossil fuel and some renewable and have too low of an energy density to be a long term solution. Toyota is thinking long term.

Their longer term bet is on hydrogen, not just for cars, but overall. They are raising $4B for that and have freely provided their 5,600 patents in the area. They are not doing that just to meet their compliance ratios since there are way more cheaper ways to do that.

Now, besides GM, there are some people who try to stifle competition and denigrate alternative approaches to ICE vehicles by referring to them as "fool cells". Go figure.
 
Not to derail this thread but nothing I've seen about Fuel Cells makes them viable:

1. Hydrogen is *hard* to store, there's a reason most industrial applications have hydrogen sensors inside. The risk of explosion is non-trivial from what I understand.
2. Fuel cells degrade over time, so instead of less range you get less efficiency.
3. There's no economical way to extract Hydrogen, solar has really poor efficiency compared to BEV and LNG involves fossil fuels which is a non-starter for many reasons.
 
No wonder why everyone who thinks so highly of Toyota doesn't understand why Toyota wants to stop the electric cars far more than GM. Do a little research on the actual quotes by Toyota management concerning EV's. They are way more against EV's than GM will ever be. Specifically Toyota says that BEVs are not practical, but they will build them as necessary to meet their compliance ratios.

Quite true. I attended a Toyota factory tour about a year ago and during the presentation, they just slammed EVs. Said the battery tech wasn't mature and that "their testing" shows they are no good for Canadian winters. The audience just lapped it up.
 
That is not the whole story.

Toyota's point is that EV are an interim solution - they are still powered by nuclear, fossil fuel and some renewable and have too low of an energy density to be a long term solution. Toyota is thinking long term.

Their longer term bet is on hydrogen, not just for cars, but overall. They are raising $4B for that and have freely provided their 5,600 patents in the area. They are not doing that just to meet their compliance ratios since there are way more cheaper ways to do that.

Now, besides GM, there are some people who try to stifle competition and denigrate alternative approaches to ICE vehicles by referring to them as "fool cells". Go figure.
That doesn't match Toyota's position of EVs. Their analysis of EVs is that they are suitable for nothing but short range city cars (a position proven to be BS by Tesla and upcoming 200 mile EVs). They still absolutely refuse to acknowledge it is a viable long distance solution (actually far more viable than their Mirai given the whole infrastructure boondoggle), temporary or otherwise.

Hydrogen is primarily made from fossil fuels today and even Japan's long term plan is to make them from fossil fuels (plan is to ship in hydrogen made from coal in Australia or to make from methane hydrates under the ocean).

Cynics will say Toyota is only pushing hydrogen because the Japanese government needs some PR help to say they are preparing for the future (esp. for Olympics) and giving Toyota a boat load of public money to do it. It allows Toyota to say they are doing something while continuing to naysay about EVs and sell hybrids.

And about R&D expenditures, Toyota's R&D last year alone was ~$9 billion (1 trillion yen; lowest in recent years is 725 billion yen in 2010).
 
Last edited:
  • Helpful
Reactions: SW2Fiddler
Commercial H2 is made from natural gas, which is already used as motor fuel. To make 1 lb of H2 creates 10 lb of CO2 in the reaction. CNG or Synthetic Diesel are actually wiser methods of using natural gas as motor fuel.
 
Not to derail this thread but nothing I've seen about Fuel Cells makes them viable:

1. Hydrogen is *hard* to store, there's a reason most industrial applications have hydrogen sensors inside. The risk of explosion is non-trivial from what I understand.
2. Fuel cells degrade over time, so instead of less range you get less efficiency.
3. There's no economical way to extract Hydrogen, solar has really poor efficiency compared to BEV and LNG involves fossil fuels which is a non-starter for many reasons.

Toyota's fuel cell is warranted for 15 years. After that, you probably would get a new car anyway.
Using a E-CEM the Navy is extracting hydrogen from seawater, there are alternative approaches that people are looking at and so we will see where this winds up in a couple of years.

Yes, people also thought that gas stations would be blowing up too. Fortunately, enough people were open minded to continue figuring out ways to safely transport and store gas.

It is always amusing that some EV supporters accuse ICE-defenders as being close minded, then some turn around and have similar knee-jerk negative reaction to hydrogen, call them "fool cells", not keep up with the tech, etc.. LOL Sure, Toyota is spending $4B for PR benefits...sure, that makes sense. LOL. Double LOL.
 
Toyota's fuel cell is warranted for 15 years. After that, you probably would get a new car anyway.
Using a E-CEM the Navy is extracting hydrogen from seawater, there are alternative approaches that people are looking at and so we will see where this winds up in a couple of years.

Yes, people also thought that gas stations would be blowing up too. Fortunately, enough people were open minded to continue figuring out ways to safely transport and store gas.

It is always amusing that some EV supporters accuse ICE-defenders as being close minded, then some turn around and have similar knee-jerk negative reaction to hydrogen, call them "fool cells", not keep up with the tech, etc.. LOL Sure, Toyota is spending $4B for PR benefits...sure, that makes sense. LOL. Double LOL.

You think it's a 'knee-jerk reaction'? Then you're not paying attention, you're just looking for ways to attack. As you say, 'LOL. Double LOL'.

Seriously, I don't see the advantage. Here's my 'LOL Double LOL Knee-Jerk Reaction': I can't fuel at home. It's hard to find places to fuel in the wild. It's not getting us away from fossil fuels. Unlike electricity, the source of fuel doesn't get cleaner and cleaner over time. What's to like??

You say there will potentially be other solutions in a couple of years. Okay. Then let's talk when there are. Right now, LOL, double LOL.
 
GM & More Dirty Tricks Again

So before you think this is just about Indiana and only people in Indiana can do anything to help ... NO! You're wrong. You've got social media accounts and can help blast this around. Super easy. You don't even have to write your own. You can retweet. Or you can do your own thing.

So first , Tesla sent this letter to Indiana owners:
Tesla Owners and Enthusiasts:



We need your help. Yesterday (2/18), the Indiana Senate Committee on Commerce & Technology held a hearing on a bill that would shut down Tesla in the state. Authored and pushed by General Motors, HB1254 with amendment 3 would prohibit any manufacturer from being able to hold a dealer license after December 31, 2017. Existing law allows ANY manufacturer to apply for a dealer license without the use of independent franchised dealers. Despite having a lawfully granted license to sell Tesla vehicles directly since 2014 at the Fashion Mall at Keystone; despite contributing over $42 million to the state through the purchase of parts and components from Indiana suppliers; and despite plans underway to construct a 26,000 square foot Tesla Service facility that will employ approximately a dozen Indiana residents and serve our customers, GM is pushing the Senate Committee to shut out Tesla.



Here’s how you can help: please contact your local Senator – and if you live in one of the districts covered by any of the following Committee members, we urge you to reach out and let them know they should not shut out Tesla. You can find your Indiana legislators here.



Chairman Buck: [email protected] , (317) 232-9466

Senator Merritt: [email protected], (317) 232-9533

Senator Delph: [email protected], (317) 232-9541

Senator Head: [email protected], (317) 232-9488

Senator Houchin: [email protected], (317) 232-9814

Senator Leising: [email protected], (317) 232-9493

Senator Tomes: [email protected], (317) 232-9414

Senator Breaux: [email protected], (317) 232-9534

Senator Broden: [email protected] , (317) 232-9849

Senator Randolph: [email protected], (317) 232-9432




A follow up hearing will be held next Thursday, February 25, 2016, at the Capitol building. Let your voice be heard before that hearing to let them know that Indiana should encourage innovation, economic growth and consumer choice. Don’t let GM tell you that your only option is to buy a car from a traditional franchised dealer by shutting out Tesla.



Thank you for your support and willingness to help Tesla stay and grow in Indiana. As always, when communicating with legislators, please be polite and respectful. Personal attacks should be absolutely avoided as they will only hurt our cause! Thank you again.

So here's the easy part. Got facebook? Log on and tell your friends what GM is up to. They're writing laws to protect their business and shut down competition. twitter? Tweet about it. Blast it out.

Here's one of my tweets (there are others are there) - feel free to retweet or to just write your own: https://twitter.com/bonnienorman/status/701209438363869184/photo/1

Screen Shot 2016-02-20 at 5.32.55 PM.png


 
It is always amusing that some EV supporters accuse ICE-defenders as being close minded, then some turn around and have similar knee-jerk negative reaction to hydrogen, call them "fool cells", not keep up with the tech, etc.. LOL Sure, Toyota is spending $4B for PR benefits...sure, that makes sense. LOL. Double LOL.

I agree that emotional reactions and fanboy attitudes have no place in a policy discussion. But you cannot ignore the laws of physics.

1. Free hydrogen does not exist in nature. You have to make it with some type of process. The laws of thermodynamics dictate that there is no process by which you can take energy of amount A, use that energy to make hydrogen, then use the hydrogen to recover energy A without any losses. Thus, it is never more efficient to use hydrogen instead of using the original energy source that you started with.

2. With this in mind, you'll see that hydrogen is not an energy source, but is functioning as an energy storage mechanism, just like a battery or a fuel tank. Thus the argument becomes, how good of a storage device is it for energy? And the answer is, a very poor one.

Hydrogen is the smallest molecule there is, and as such it's very difficult to contain. You cannot transport it by pipeline because it will leak through every seam and joint in the pipe. To get it to an energy density that is practical, you need to store it as either highly compressed gas (10K psi) which requires large tanks with thick walls, or as liquified gas which requires cryogenic equipment. Transporting it means that all trucks that are carrying hydrogen must fall into one of these two categories, and either is far more expensive and more trouble than a gasoline truck.

Now, before anyone starts quoting specific energies (MJ/kg) or energy densities (MJ/L) of hydrogen, gasoline, or lithium-ion batteries, keep in mind that those values for the fuel itself are academic. Reality dictates that the true comparison has to be made along with the energy conversion device that will be in the car to convert the stored energy into work, and must take into account it's conversion efficiency. Thus, though gasoline is 32 MJ/L, once you have a large drivetrain and transmission, and an average conversion efficiency of 20%, the usable MJ/L is quite low. Compare it to a lithium-ion battery (low energy density of only 2.5 MJ/L), but a 92% efficient small conversion device. Usable MJ/L is now on par with gasoline.

Hydrogen is in the same ballpark. You have a fuel tank with compressed H2 at 10kpsi, giving you 5.6 MJ/L, but you also have to have a large tank + fuel cell + electric motor + small battery for peak demand and regen capture, and an overall efficiency of 60% at best. Usable MJ/L is now down on par with the other solutions, and you would have been more efficient using the original energy before you used it to make hydrogen.

3. With any non-gasoline solution, you're looking at having to build new energy distribution infrastructure. With hydrogen, that is starting from scratch. With electrical, you already have a distribution system, you only need endpoints. Public endpoints are only going to be single-digit percentage of the chargers that need to be deployed, the majority will be at people's homes.

4. Any type of energy can be turned into electricity. Any future breakthrough in solar, wind, or other not-yet-conceived forms of energy can feed the electrical grid, letting a nation and a society have a maximally efficient marketplace for energy. The cheapest form of energy will prevail. Not so with hydrogen -- the only people that is good for would be the corporations who would control the production and distribution.


Sorry to burst Toyota's bubble, but hydrogen is an impractical solution no matter how you slice it. It doesn't matter if the Navy is creating hydrogen from seawater or not, the energy you're using for that would propel an electric car further under any circumstances. Hydrogen vehicle propulsion will never be practical and will never compete in the marketplace, and the reason is physics, not fanboism.
 
So before you think this is just about Indiana and only people in Indiana can do anything to help ... NO! You're wrong. You've got social media accounts and can help blast this around. Super easy. You don't even have to write your own. You can retweet. Or you can do your own thing.

So first , Tesla sent this letter to Indiana owners:


So here's the easy part. Got facebook? Log on and tell your friends what GM is up to. They're writing laws to protect their business and shut down competition. twitter? Tweet about it. Blast it out.

Here's one of my tweets (there are others are there) - feel free to retweet or to just write your own: https://twitter.com/bonnienorman/status/701209438363869184/photo/1

View attachment 112013


Bonnie thank you for all your help and assistance in helping the Indiana Tesla owners.
Today it is Indiana, tomorrow it very well could be any state that is standing in the way of the Dealer Franchised network,
(who contribute millions to political candidates).

I just finished sending emails to all concerned parties and was wondering what more could be done.
Your foresight is impeccable! as I over looked the obvious.
 
Toyota's fuel cell is warranted for 15 years. After that, you probably would get a new car anyway.
The fuel cell warranty on the Mirai is 8 years / 100k miles (whichever comes first).
https://ssl.toyota.com/mirai/Mirai_Ownership_Experience.pdf

You got the expiration date mixed up with the warranty date. The car expires after 14 years (likely because of the tank, as CNG tanks also have similar expiration dates). Meaning you can't legally drive the car at all after 14 years without replacing at least the tank.
http://insideevs.com/2016-toyota-mirai-refuel-2029/

Using a E-CEM the Navy is extracting hydrogen from seawater, there are alternative approaches that people are looking at and so we will see where this winds up in a couple of years.
Same theme of hydrogen advocates not understanding that hydrogen is an energy carrier (and not an energy source). The E-CEM system gets energy from a nuclear reactor to make hydrogen (seawater is not the source of energy). It is not any more a renewable source than traditional nuclear based energy.

Yes, people also thought that gas stations would be blowing up too. Fortunately, enough people were open minded to continue figuring out ways to safely transport and store gas.

It is always amusing that some EV supporters accuse ICE-defenders as being close minded, then some turn around and have similar knee-jerk negative reaction to hydrogen, call them "fool cells", not keep up with the tech, etc..
No offense, but I think I know more about the tech than you do (and most casual hydrogen advocates). I have been following hydrogen since the Hy-wire days (initially I thought it was more viable than EVs back in those days, given EVs were still on lead-acid batteries).

The dismissal of the technology is not from a knee jerk reaction, but from a rational evaluation of the pros and cons of the technology. Fact of the matter is other than 5 minute refueling, hydrogen provides little advantage over a BEV.

The fuel costs $13/kg, so even factoring higher efficiency at 67 MPGe, that is like paying $6 per gallon for a 30 MPG car.

We (California) are subsidizing stations at ~$3 million each: $200 million in grants for 68 stations; and that is only the government share of the costs. These are largely 100kg/day stations that can service ~25 cars a day. Meaning that $200 million in grant spending will only support about 10k-15k vehicles (if you assume a 4kg fill-up roughly every week). $200 million is more than the $140 million book value of the 480 supercharger stations worldwide that Tesla had as of mid-2015.
And maintenance/operational costs of such stations are likely also astronomical (it was in the news that stations are out of service from months because of maintenance issues).

In terms of efficiency, it only matches EVs if talking about hydrogen reformed from natural gas. If hydrogen is made from electricity, an EV can go 3x as far from the same amount of electricity. I can show the math if you need me to (based on both ANL and EIA data as I have been doing calculations on this for many years and using as updated numbers as possible).

Fuel cells are power limited (cost scales by power). For example, Mirai's fuel cell is 112kW, making it have poor acceleration (0-60 in 9 seconds) for a $60k car. Tuscon Fuel Cell is even worse with a 100kW fuel cell and acceleration at 0-60 in 12 seconds.

The volumetric density of hydrogen tanks are poor and their cylindrical shape makes packaging difficult. The Mirai sacrifices a seat (it is only a 4 seater), doesn't have a trunk pass-through and has subpar trunk space for a car of its size (no official numbers yet, but reviewers say that trunk is smaller than in a Corolla).

LOL Sure, Toyota is spending $4B for PR benefits...sure, that makes sense. LOL. Double LOL.
You underestimate the amount of money Toyota spends on advertising and the advantage of having a halo car. Toyota's ad spending in 2013 in US alone was over $2 billion.
Toyota Motor: ad spend in the U.S. by medium 2013 | Statistic

That $4 billion will serve multiple purposes. It aids Toyota's political allies (Abe is a good friend of them). It gives them front placement in the 2020 Tokyo Olympics (where hydrogen will be focused on, as typical of many Olympic events in the past). It allows them to say they are in the forefront of technology, while ideally they sell you a current profitable vehicle (like the Prius that they recently styled similarly). it allows them to tell customers to wait for the hydrogen future and discourage buyers from looking at EVs.
 
Bonnie thank you for all your help and assistance in helping the Indiana Tesla owners.
Today it is Indiana, tomorrow it very well could be any state that is standing in the way of the Dealer Franchised network,
(who contribute millions to political candidates).

I just finished sending emails to all concerned parties and was wondering what more could be done.
Your foresight is impeccable! as I over looked the obvious.

Thanks :). Just keep hammering publicly. Letters matter. Being held accountable publicly matters, too. You can be polite the whole time, but politicians hate to be held accountable in public. The press sees stuff in public, while they don't see letters. Maybe contact your local news media about this. And thank you so much for writing letters. Because you're right. If GM is successful there, then they just keep going.
 
Hydrogen can be produced from diverse, domestic resources. Currently, most hydrogen is produced from fossil fuels, specifically natural gas. Electricity—from the grid or from renewable sources such as wind, solar, geothermal, or biomass—is also currently used to produce hydrogen. In the longer term, solar energy and biomass can be used more directly to generate hydrogen.

Natural Gas and Other Fossil Fuels

Fossil fuels can be reformed to release the hydrogen from their hydrocarbon molecules and are the source of most of the hydrogen currently made in the United States. Combining these processes with carbon capture, utilization, and storage will reduce the carbon dioxide emissions. Natural gas reforming is an advanced and mature hydrogen production process that builds upon the existing natural gas infrastructure. Today 95% of the hydrogen produced in the United States today is made by natural gas reforming in large central plants. This is an important pathway for near-term hydrogen production.
http://energy.gov/eere/fuelcells/hydrogen-resources

Hydrogen advocates always talk about getting hydrogen from water, but in the real world that's not what what hydrogen is made from. 95% of hydrogen is made from natural gas, and produces emissions.

The article mentions carbon capture and storage. Unfortunately, this doesn't work. The Government of Saskatchewan spent $1.5 billion for a carbon capture and storage facility, and it doesn't work. Not only have the emissions on the power plant gone up, the CCS uses 30% of the plant's electricity.