TMC is an independent, primarily volunteer organization that relies on ad revenue to cover its operating costs. Please consider whitelisting TMC on your ad blocker and becoming a Supporting Member. For more info: Support TMC

Green New Deal

Discussion in 'Energy, Environment, and Policy' started by mspohr, Dec 14, 2018.

  1. nwdiver

    nwdiver Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2013
    Messages:
    5,607
    Location:
    United States
    #1641 nwdiver, Sep 11, 2019
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2019
    The GND is about solving a systemic problem with a systemic solution. Sadly an honorable and meaningful life doesn't pay the bills... but an estate tax could certainly help with medical expenses and from your perspective maybe a few empty childhoods.

    Here's a crazy idea. Why don't we establish a reasonable estate tax, end this absurd plutocracy, EVERYONE works for what they have and we use the proceeds to fund a clean energy future :)
     
  2. Merrill

    Merrill Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 23, 2013
    Messages:
    3,050
    Location:
    Sonoma, California
    My parents had no money, in fact I had to help them on occasion. I served my country in the Army in Vietnam and was proud to do so. I had to commute to college and work to afford to go, my work ethic was such that after spending 3 years in the military and flying around getting shot at in Vietnam I was very motivated to finish college and have a career. I expected nothing from anyone and made no excuses for anything, if you want something you can have it if you are willing to work your butt off.
     
    • Like x 1
  3. nwdiver

    nwdiver Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2013
    Messages:
    5,607
    Location:
    United States
    My point is that we're entering an economic phase where that is increasingly difficult bordering on nearly impossible. The only way to get wealth will be to grow it from wealth.

    The reason this is related to the GND is because it requires a fundamental restructuring of the energy sector. There are cities dependent on the 3GW coal plant nearby or the coal mine or the refinery. Without support they will evaporate destroying billions of dollars in value of the surrounding area. Not to mention the social cost. There's a reason deaths of despair are skyrocketing in the rust belt. Opioids were really just a spark after a deep economic drought that's only going to get worse for these areas.
     
    • Like x 1
  4. tes-s

    tes-s Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2013
    Messages:
    1,548
    Location:
    CT
    We have a federal estate tax of 40%. CT adds in another 12%.

    50% seems like enough to me. You seem to be a believe in inheritance, so I'm guessing you don't want 100%.

    The federal estate tax generates about $25B per year and we spend almost $4T on healthcare. I don't think raising the estate tax is going to do much in paying for healthcare. You also know that Warren Buffet and Bill Gates will pay little if anything in estate taxes since they will be giving away the vast majority of their fortunes.

    Sounds like DiBlasio and his robots taking over and leaving no jobs for people. Better stop the machines while we still can - once they start thinking for themselves we will have no choice in the matter. They will be the army and control society. We will be their servants, if they even decide to keep us around.

    In 1900 40% of the people in this country lived on farms and supplied food to the country. Now it is 1%. It did not cause the economy to collapse - on the contrary if freed people up to do more productive things. Yes there will be fewer coal miners in 20 years. Fewer taxi drivers in 20 years.

    I am a little confused though. It seems to be the same people saying we have a crisis that jobs are going away and there will be nothing left for people to do, and we have a crisis and need more immigration because we have more jobs than people to fill them. Which is it??
     
  5. nwdiver

    nwdiver Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2013
    Messages:
    5,607
    Location:
    United States
    Not really. That was satire to highlight the absurdity of how the system works. And the estate tax is too easily dodged with trust funds. That's what needs to end. You really think Donald sent a check for 40% of what Fred was worth to the IRS?
     
  6. tes-s

    tes-s Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2013
    Messages:
    1,548
    Location:
    CT
    Agreed. I just don't think big government is the one that should do it. Let it happen naturally (we all agree that fossil fuels are finite and this is inevitable, right?) or accelerate it with a revenue-neutral carbon fee/credit.

    Steel mills have closed. Lumber mills have closed. Weaving mills have closed. Gold and silver mines have closed. Yes towns died - some were reborn, some were not.

    We shifted away from an economy based on farm labor without central government planning. And that was 40% of the labor force - far more than work in the fossil fuel industry.
     
  7. tes-s

    tes-s Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2013
    Messages:
    1,548
    Location:
    CT
    Are you an estate attorney? Do you have a link that describes how this works?

    The only way I know of to legally avoid estate tax is to give it away (or not have it in the first place). That is how Bill Gates and Warren Buffet are going to avoid it.
     
  8. tes-s

    tes-s Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2013
    Messages:
    1,548
    Location:
    CT
    The estate tax was 55% at the time. No, I think he cheated on the taxes in many ways, including under-valuing real estate and outright fraud. As best I can tell he did not use legal "trust funds" to avoid the taxes. The higher the tax rate, the more people will cheat.

    Maybe if we have a lot of unemployed people because they are displaced by robots, the IRS can hire them to catch the tax cheats. Half the country will be working, and the other half will be auditing them to make sure they are paying their taxes.
     
    • Like x 1
  9. nwdiver

    nwdiver Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2013
    Messages:
    5,607
    Location:
    United States
    #1649 nwdiver, Sep 11, 2019
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2019
    How else do you think the Kochs and Waltons keep their wealth?

    Computers are already WAAAAY better :( But hey... leaves more time for hiking the great outdoors :) or whatever else floats your boat :)
     
  10. Merrill

    Merrill Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 23, 2013
    Messages:
    3,050
    Location:
    Sonoma, California
    I guess we need to define wealth, I’m certainly not what I would call wealthy but was able to sustain a comfortable life style.
     
  11. tes-s

    tes-s Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2013
    Messages:
    1,548
    Location:
    CT
    #1651 tes-s, Sep 11, 2019
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2019
    There is a reason that person is making peanuts writing a blog, and not millions.

    1. Gifts while you are alive. Yes, you can gift up to $15,000 to as many people as you want each year you are alive. So if you have 100 children, grandchildren, and great grandchildren you can gift $1.5 million each year without paying taxes. But remember that money is going to 100 different families, so it is not like it makes them billionaires. Sure $15,000 per year is a nice tax-free income, but it is not enough to live large.
    2. Insurance. Instead if giving money to your children / granchildren each year, you can pay insurance premiums with it and when you die they get the insurance tax-free. So pretty much the same as #1 - believe me, the insurance companies are not writing insurance policies to lose money.
    3. Give it away. Yep - but that does not pass it on to your heirs. Just goes to charity instead of the government.
    4. FLP. Same limitations as #1 and #2 - you can only transfer $15,000 per year per individual.
    5. QPRT - a few million perhaps.

    So basically you can transfer $15,000 in various ways to individuals tax free each year as long as you are alive, and you can give it away.

    This was just a click-bait article because these are all nice ways for middle class and rich people to pass on some of their wealth to their heirs without paying estate tax, but it does nothing for the people with more than $100M like Trump's father and the Kochs, Waltons, Soros, Buffet, Gates, Bezos, Bloomberg or thousands of other people in the US that have that kind of wealth. When they die it can go to charity, or give it to their children after paying 40% to the federal government and (if they live in CT) 12% to the state government.

    And they can't skip a generation either - or they pay generation skipping tax which is basically the estate tax again. So it gets taxed every generation.
     
  12. nwdiver

    nwdiver Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2013
    Messages:
    5,607
    Location:
    United States
    Judging by the fact that the wealth of the richest families never dip ~40% when a patriarch dies I'm guessing none of that ever happens. David Kochs nephew inherited his power and influence ($$$). Welcome to post-modern feudalism :(
     
    • Like x 1
  13. tes-s

    tes-s Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2013
    Messages:
    1,548
    Location:
    CT
    Power and influence? If you say so.

    $$$? Yes, after paying 40% to the feds - or do you have something that suggests otherwise? I think his estate is something like $50B. If it all goes to his nephew, it should be subject to about $20B in estate tax, leaving him with a paltry $30B.
     
  14. tes-s

    tes-s Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2013
    Messages:
    1,548
    Location:
    CT
  15. JRP3

    JRP3 Hyperactive Member

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2007
    Messages:
    15,979
    Location:
    Central New York
    New Deal - Wikipedia
     
    • Like x 1
  16. JRP3

    JRP3 Hyperactive Member

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2007
    Messages:
    15,979
    Location:
    Central New York
    • Like x 1
  17. JRP3

    JRP3 Hyperactive Member

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2007
    Messages:
    15,979
    Location:
    Central New York
    Tell that to the people working 2 or 3 jobs and still struggling. Hard work guaranteeing success is not necessarily true.
     
    • Like x 3
  18. tes-s

    tes-s Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2013
    Messages:
    1,548
    Location:
    CT
    We have 3.7% unemployment. Solution looking for a problem. But if people think we need a New New Deal, make the case for it - don't hide behind global warming.
    Actually I think it is a lifetime $12.5M exemption (Edit: actually $11.4M) - in addition to the $15,000 per person per year. Pennies for the Waltons, Buffet, Bezos, Gates, Koch, Bloomberg, Trump, etc. That is for people that own farms or have accumulated some wealth to pass on to their heirs.
     
  19. SDRick

    SDRick Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2015
    Messages:
    1,167
    Location:
    SD CA United States
    Agreed, hard work is no guarantee. There always was and probably will always be the lower class. Besides hard work, you also need some luck but most importantly financial discipline and saving consistently.

    "Discipline and consistency. These two factors outweigh a high-paying job, inheritance, and luck every time. And the good news is, we can all choose discipline and consistency. They aren’t reserved for special or “lucky” people; anyone can commit to being financially disciplined. The problem is that most people don’t want to take the long road. They want instant success".

    How Many Millionaires Actually Inherited Their Wealth? | Chris Hogan
     
    • Like x 1
  20. Merrill

    Merrill Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 23, 2013
    Messages:
    3,050
    Location:
    Sonoma, California
    I guess I need to clarify my statement, over the years I have met so many young people who lack any work ethic and when they have a job to do they do it poorly. They seem to have this me me attitude of you owe it to me so why do I have to work for it. I understand there are people working hard and struggling, when I started working at 14 I tried to do the best job I could even if I did not like what I was doing. As time went on I would ask for a review or a raise and if I did not receive it I moved on, over the years I was employed by some who recognized my ability and work ethic and rewarded me accordingly. As I moved into management I tried to do the same with those who worked for me and performed. I will not go into the details of those who did not as stated above.
     

Share This Page

  • About Us

    Formed in 2006, Tesla Motors Club (TMC) was the first independent online Tesla community. Today it remains the largest and most dynamic community of Tesla enthusiasts. Learn more.
  • Do you value your experience at TMC? Consider becoming a Supporting Member of Tesla Motors Club. As a thank you for your contribution, you'll get nearly no ads in the Community and Groups sections. Additional perks are available depending on the level of contribution. Please visit the Account Upgrades page for more details.


    SUPPORT TMC