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Green New Deal

Discussion in 'Energy, Environment, and Policy' started by mspohr, Dec 14, 2018.

  1. mspohr

    mspohr Well-Known Member

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    "Hard work leads to success" is a myth perpetrated by the rich.
    It is used both to denigrate those who are not rich and to rationalize their own success.
    They think: If someone is poor they must be lazy, stupid, have bad genes, or not have "a good work ethic".
    Of their own success they think they did it entirely on their own without any help from family, friends, political connections, government.

    The reality is just the opposite.
    The poor are poor because they didn't have opportunities that many enjoy such as education, health care, a decent place to live and the support of family and friends. They may have health problems that keep them in poverty. The reality is that you can't support yourself (let alone a family) on minimum wage jobs (even two or three jobs) no matter how hard you work.

    The rich, OTOH, forget about the fact that they grew up well fed, had decent housing, good education opportunities, access to health care and strong support from family and friends as well as government. As a result, as adults they had access to good jobs, financial resources (loans and subsidies from family, friends and government). They benefit from government tax subsidies, favorable regulations, sweetheart government contracts.

    Trump is a great example. He grew up privileged with millions of dollars of loans from his family and invested in real estate which was very profitable because of government subsidy and loan programs. He went on to other investments and proved to be a terrible businessman going bankrupt multiple times (bankrupting his investors and the government but never himself).
     
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  2. SDRick

    SDRick Active Member

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    If hard work and consistent financial discipline does not lead to success, what path are you proposing?
     
  3. JRP3

    JRP3 Hyperactive Member

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    You said the country transitioned from an agrarian economy without government intervention, that is false. The New Deal was one example. The current unemployment level is misleading because it ignores the large amount of under employment and those people who have given up looking for jobs which don't exist. It also ignores what is likely going to happen in the future as AI and robotics take even more jobs from humans. Remember that Tesla is directly involved in making that change happen. The case has repeatedly been made that a comprehensive plan needs to include solutions for global warming and economic stability, for some reason you want to ignore that.
     
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  4. TheTalkingMule

    TheTalkingMule Distributed Energy Enthusiast

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    Quite clearly it's consistent financial discipline, resources, and no work at all. Is there even a question?
     
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  5. SDRick

    SDRick Active Member

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    Perhaps I am not understanding, please explain the "no work at all" part of your response.
     
  6. mspohr

    mspohr Well-Known Member

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    Most of the very wealthy don't work at all.
     
  7. mspohr

    mspohr Well-Known Member

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    The wealthy choose to inherit their wealth. That's the easiest route.
    If you didn't inherit wealth, you have to work. However, most of the lower/middle class work very hard but are not getting wealthy... many of them are not even getting by, being only one missed paycheck or one illness away from financial distress and living on the street.
     
  8. SDRick

    SDRick Active Member

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    The very wealthy are corner cases. Even they work and take risk.

    In any event, what about your basic millionaires that are "a dime a dozen" as was referenced up thread. How did they do it? (And before you respond again with they inherited it, do a bit more research first).
     
  9. mspohr

    mspohr Well-Known Member

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    How many millionaires are there in the United States? We estimate that there are 14,814,453 millionaires in the United States. A million dollar net worth for a household is the 88.24% wealth bracket in the US in 2016: 11.76% of all households.

    Most of these had the advantage of a good education, good health care, a decent place to live. They went to college, got good jobs and saved their money. Unfortunately, they are a small minority (12%). Shouldn't everyone have these same opportunities?
     
  10. Merrill

    Merrill Active Member

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    Sometimes you make your own opportunities, a good education is the primary focus anyone should have. I went to a state college, was commuting and worked 2 jobs while doing this. Keep in mind I had no money, my parents were not wealthy and could not help with the cost.
     
  11. TheTalkingMule

    TheTalkingMule Distributed Energy Enthusiast

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    Having essentially no estate tax, a flexible capital gains tax, and thousands of other tax dodges in an utterly corrupt capitalist system makes it pretty easy to maintain wealth.

    Nothing wrong with being wealthy, it's just not that difficult to maintain at this point in history. As evidenced by record(and accelerating) wealth inequality. People didn't suddenly get smarter, the game is just easier right now.
     
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  12. SDRick

    SDRick Active Member

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    With the capital markets at record high, no wonder the wealthy are so doing well. It is always easier in an upmarket, everyone is an investment genius. Since I do not believe they have eliminated business cycles, the wealthy are also poised to lose a lot of their "paper" wealth in the next downturn (which for many here probably can't come soon enough).

    Wealth can erode from the rich as well:

    Case in point, today oilman T-Boone Pickens died. Before we hear too many celebratory remarks about losing the oilman and corporate raider I found it interesting that his net worth peaked at about $3 billion in 2007 and was pegged at $500 million today. Apparently, he lost the bulk of his wealth investing in renewable wind energy. Even in a booming market, the rich can lose money. In addition, he gave some pretty big chunks of his wealth away in addition to also signing the Giving Pledge started by Bill Gates and Warren Buffett.
     
  13. tes-s

    tes-s Supporting Member

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    I do not believe the New Deal was to transition from the farm economy. Not important - if that is what you believe, fine.
    Nope. The labor participation rate has been a little below 63% for the past 6 years, and is now a little above 63%.
    See above - MORE people are working now than in the past 6 years.

    So what is it - we need immigrants to fill jobs because we don't have enough workers, or we need to stop robots from taking jobs away from people because we have too many workers?
    How about world hunger? Global peace? Racial discrimination? Gender rights? Immigration reform? Opiod crisis? Affordable healthcare? Does not seem particularly comprehensive to me. I'm questioning why those two were chosen to be bundled together.
     
  14. Merrill

    Merrill Active Member

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    Talk about work ethic, how many Caucasian’s will you find working in vineyards or harvesting produce. I could go on and on but it gets back to work ethic. There are jobs out there but who will take them, let’s live off my parents get welfare or food stamps, unemployment compensation.
     
  15. nwdiver

    nwdiver Well-Known Member

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    #1675 nwdiver, Sep 12, 2019
    Last edited: Sep 12, 2019
    The work is certainly out there... but you’ll never be able to buy solar panels or an EV or a house...

    Frontline did a great examination of Dayton Ohio and how the town has been gutted economically and lost half it's population. It's streaming on Prime 'Left Behind'; If this energy transition is performed carelessly it's going to exacerbate those problems and fail.

    It's still pooling at the top because of the way our economy is structured... this isn't sustainable.

    Screen Shot 2019-09-12 at 7.41.33 PM.png
     
  16. SDRick

    SDRick Active Member

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    I agree, this wealth disparity is probably unsustainable. Much of the spike seen with the current batch of 1% er's is skewed by the huge gains of the 0.1% driven by record market gains. In any event, come the next recession or depression these wealth percentage rates will most likely revert back to the historical mean or below.
     
  17. nwdiver

    nwdiver Well-Known Member

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    What do you think will happen if 10M jobs are automated in 10 years and our energy becomes 50% more labor efficient?
     
  18. SDRick

    SDRick Active Member

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    I've been pretty accurate making predictions except when it's about the future. So in other words I'm not sure, what do you think will happen in 10 years?
     
  19. nwdiver

    nwdiver Well-Known Member

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    Either the gap between those that can't spend what they have and those that don't have anything to spend will continue to widen exponentially threatening any climate progress OR we'll have some form of UBI and more people can focus on things that really matter like transitioning to clean energy....

    Turns out that worrying over how you squeeze a trip to Mexico to get affordable insulin to stay alive so you can keep working 60 hours a week to care for your aging mother has a really negative effect on how much you care about climate change........ and a REALLY REALLY negative effect on your ability to do your part to mitigate it....
     
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  20. tes-s

    tes-s Supporting Member

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    Have you seen a chart like that, except where they exclude the top .001% (3500 people) from the chart? I think that would be interesting.

    There are a few people (especially Gates, Zuckerberg, Bezos, Gates, Buffet, Koch) that skew the results. I'm not sure those 3500 people having a lot of money really affects the lives of the other 99.999% - if all their assets were nationalized to pay down the national debt (maybe 10% of it??), would anyone notice? I'm sure they would....
     

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