I don't think people are saying you can't or are not allowed to have gripes about the interior just because it's an EV, just that being an EV should be added to the benefits to possibly outweigh the potential negatives of the current interior. If the negatives are too great then it's probably not the car for that individual.
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Gripes about the Beta interior
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My guess is that the gripes most stem from expectations: "We intend to make the best car, not just the best electric car". Because "best" includes interior, it's actually reasonable to assume those who don't really like the interior are going to say so. Depending upon your priorities, the particular gripes that you have may or may not be a deal-breaker. Actually, the gripes will help Tesla in the long term because if no one says anything nothing will ever change. I have a long list of gripes starting with the unfortunate choice of tire sizes, but those gripes aren't likely to stop me from purchasing.
Tommy
Member
TM might be miles behind in interior finish, but they are light years ahead in the overall package of delivering a first class, currently unparalleled electric vehicle.
There seem to be many nit-pickers here who feel that the interior package is more important than the overall EV package...a hint...get over it!...it's not!...and if you can't see this / don't realize this, go buy a gasser and spare the rest of us your nits...am getting weary of reading comments about the Model S's interior shortcomings...wake up to the FACT that this car has NO SUBSTITUTE!!!
THIS MESSAGE BROUGHT TO YOU BUY ONE WHO HAS BEEN DRIVING ELECTRIC FOR 15 MONTHS NOW AND LOVING EVERY MINUTE OF IT!:smile::smile::love::love:
Here's my reality: I was all in on getting almost all the options and the 85kw battery that was going to price the car with state taxes in the mid $90k. I now see an interior that is comparable to a $40k car; it's as though Tesla's bean counter's are now in charge. So the disparity in perceived value in my eyes and still wanting an EV leaves me with purchasing the base model with the 40kw battery pack as it is more in line with what the interior presents itself as.
So the short of it is, Tesla IMO may not lose sales but will lose higher margin sales because of how the interior looks and functions.
TM might be miles behind in interior finish, but they are light years ahead in the overall package of delivering a first class, currently unparalleled electric vehicle.
There seem to be many nit-pickers here who feel that the interior package is more important than the overall EV package...a hint...get over it!...it's not!...and if you can't see this / don't realize this, go buy a gasser and spare the rest of us your nits
THIS MESSAGE BROUGHT TO YOU BUY ONE WHO HAS BEEN DRIVING ELECTRIC FOR 15 MONTHS NOW AND LOVING EVERY MINUTE OF IT!:smile::smile::love::love:
First of all, this was a rather juvenile post. And completely unnecessary. People have every right to voice their opinion, and it's not as if a small minority have concerns about the interior.
You are about to purchase your second $100k+ car in as many years and certainly don't represent the average luxury car purchaser. You and several other Roadster owners have made it clear that the car is full of quirks (to put it mildly) and is less than ideal on many fronts, but that you forgive these shortcomings because of the amazing ride. I think that's great, and more power to ya that you have the money to make a purchase that shines in one area but falls short in many others. Listen, I have enough disposable money to purchase a couple Roadsters if I wanted to. But it's simply impractical. Not even considering the fact that I can't even fit in the damn thing at 6'5", most people either don't have the money or are too practical to buy an exotic car like the Roadster. And the fact that they only sold 2,000 of them proves this.
If you care about the viability of Tesla, you would understand that Tesla needs to compete on all levels, including the interior. This is clearly an important aspect to a car, as is evident by the reaction people have had. Tesla cannot afford to simply make the Model S a fun car to drive as is the case with the Roadster. Because if they did, it'd be doomed and relegated to novelty status. Tesla had every intention to sell more than the 2,000 Roadsters that they did, but market demand for a car that provides a peerless ride is clearly not enough. They need to provide the total package and target a wider audience, and that's what they have strived for ("best sedan of any kind"). Undoubtedly they have achieved a lot to make that a reality, but in the eyes of many the interior falls short. Again, if you cared about the success of Tesla you would want them to live up to their goals and the expectations of the majority of luxury car buyers, and not simply dismiss the importance of the interior.
voip-ninja
Give me some sugar baby
I think that you hit it on the head with the above post online. There's no doubt that there will be a hard core group of buyers who will buy the Tesla Model S regardless of comparisons in things like interior and exterior styling 'because it's an EV' (and, because it's a Tesla). The problem is that this is a very very small group of people, and if Tesla wants to break out of this small group, which might comprise as few as 10K-20K buyers they are going to need to make the car more appealing mainstream.
To put it another way, I am willing to stretch and get a Model S (my budget for a new car was realistically going to be more like $40-$50K tops and I would have to push that budget quite a bit for the Model S) because I care a lot about the environment and fuel economy. Having said that, the Model S really needs to excel in every area including interior design. I was already having some issues with the enormous touchscreen, lack of any conventional controls (study after study seems to be proving out that knobs/switches are better for muscle memory than a touch screen) and the lack of a conventional driver display (not sure if I'm sold on the LCD in lieu of more reliable gauges for at least speed and such).... but seeing the comments about how the quality fails to stack up against other premium auto makers is certainly giving me pause.
There is a silver lining in this though, Tesla is going to have very very low production for the first year or two, so there is every possibility for them to learn from this and introduce a "mid cycle" refresh of the car in a couple of years that addresses some of these issues, especially as excitement over a $85K sedan begins to cool and they need to compete more effectively against other luxury marquees.
To put it another way, I am willing to stretch and get a Model S (my budget for a new car was realistically going to be more like $40-$50K tops and I would have to push that budget quite a bit for the Model S) because I care a lot about the environment and fuel economy. Having said that, the Model S really needs to excel in every area including interior design. I was already having some issues with the enormous touchscreen, lack of any conventional controls (study after study seems to be proving out that knobs/switches are better for muscle memory than a touch screen) and the lack of a conventional driver display (not sure if I'm sold on the LCD in lieu of more reliable gauges for at least speed and such).... but seeing the comments about how the quality fails to stack up against other premium auto makers is certainly giving me pause.
There is a silver lining in this though, Tesla is going to have very very low production for the first year or two, so there is every possibility for them to learn from this and introduce a "mid cycle" refresh of the car in a couple of years that addresses some of these issues, especially as excitement over a $85K sedan begins to cool and they need to compete more effectively against other luxury marquees.
TM might be miles behind in interior finish, but they are light years ahead in the overall package of delivering a first class, currently unparalleled electric vehicle.
There seem to be many nit-pickers here who feel that the interior package is more important than the overall EV package...a hint...get over it!...it's not!...and if you can't see this / don't realize this, go buy a gasser and spare the rest of us your nits
THIS MESSAGE BROUGHT TO YOU BUY ONE WHO HAS BEEN DRIVING ELECTRIC FOR 15 MONTHS NOW AND LOVING EVERY MINUTE OF IT!:smile::smile::love::love:
The interior is part of the "overall package" so how is that "first class" and "unparalleled" ?
If a company that you are a fan of makes an electric car platform (that none of us have ever driven) that suddenly makes them "first class"?
Again interior is part of the "overall package" and albeit an important part of that package. I am curious how you can say that the interior may be miles behind yet say it is the "overall" package.
Since you love Tesla so much are you buying out your lease on your Roadster and keeping both the Model S & Roadster?
Before making such claims perhaps you should actually drive the car?
William13
Active Member
Because of your resorting to caps, I basically ignored your entire post other than quoting, deleting the content, and replying as a social awareness FYI.
It seems that unparalleled access to the company has lead to unparalleled expectations that voices will be listened too. Kudos to TM for allowing the access and kudos to all of you for providing feedback. TM has probably missed a step in that when you ask for feedback you need to respond once you get it - by respond I don't necessarily mean change design, but certainly communicate back, be it publicly or privately.
It is ironic - if we were posting design comments on a forum for a new model of BMW or MB, do we really think they'd listen anywhere near as much as Tesla has for a number of things? Perhaps if one us bought 10,000/yr. for a corporate fleet, otherwise probably not.
I happen to like the Beta interior. After reading all the hubub of the last few days I went on many websites - BMW, MB, Audi, Lexus, Acura, Infiniti, Jaguar, Aston Martin, Maserati, Alfa Romeo, Ferrari - to view interiors. My friends, you have to severely crack $100K to get anything remotely unique. If you took away all badging and stuck me in a BMW, Audi, Lexus, or MB interior, I'd have a hard time differentiating. They are all nice quality, but in my opinion very mainstream, and not great, design - a zillion buttons, center console (I know, don't get you started), etc. Everything looks very additive - start with a door, add a handle (two actually, one that unlatches things and a big fat one to pull,) add a pocket for stuff, add a few mirror and window controls, add a change holder, add a speaker or two, use six materials in 2 s.f. - after viewing them all, I pulled back and thought they looked quite clunky. And the dashboards - please go on a diet! But they are safe designs, we are all used to them. Heck, I own a 5-series Bimmer so I am not a disbeliever. Aston Martin and Ferrari were distinguished by just being prettier designs, but still I'd argue additive in nature and less unique than Tesla. I know unique doesn't necessarily = good, and I may be way off on this, but I think in 2-3 years you will see all these other manufacturers migrate towards Tesla's approach - simpler, flowing surfaces that become functional or define functional areas. The touchscreen and voice are the future, so less simply stuff is the result. I am all in.
Look, we're all creatures of habit, and I agree we shouldn't compromise safety for looks - digging in the glove box for sunglasses at 65 MPH = no good. So a future add-in console may serve many of you well, and I hope Tesla makes a beautiful, functional, flowing one. But give yourself a few months to try what's there and reconsider. I bet most of you don't walk down the street with a center console under your arm so it's easy to get to your sunglasses, chapstick, change, dried up pen, and a dry-cleaning receipt. Try to meet the car where it is and see if you like the simpler results.
I'm an architect and at our firm we try very hard to marry performance and design so they are inextricably wed - they are the same thing if we have really succeeded. I like to challenge my teams w/a mantra of 'fewer, simple, bolder moves' when we design. Look at the interiors of all the competitors (especially if stay under $100K). I think you'll see when they decided they needed something new, they added it. 'More, messier, weaker moves' in my opinion. I'm happy if Tesla doesn't add anything to the design except quality materials and workmanship.
Tesla isn't perfect - it never will be. But it's headed in the right direction on many fronts - that's why we're all fans. Even the interior.
Keep providing feedback - I'd love the X and the next gen. S to be even better than what we're all about to buy. Can't wait!
Cattledog
It is ironic - if we were posting design comments on a forum for a new model of BMW or MB, do we really think they'd listen anywhere near as much as Tesla has for a number of things? Perhaps if one us bought 10,000/yr. for a corporate fleet, otherwise probably not.
I happen to like the Beta interior. After reading all the hubub of the last few days I went on many websites - BMW, MB, Audi, Lexus, Acura, Infiniti, Jaguar, Aston Martin, Maserati, Alfa Romeo, Ferrari - to view interiors. My friends, you have to severely crack $100K to get anything remotely unique. If you took away all badging and stuck me in a BMW, Audi, Lexus, or MB interior, I'd have a hard time differentiating. They are all nice quality, but in my opinion very mainstream, and not great, design - a zillion buttons, center console (I know, don't get you started), etc. Everything looks very additive - start with a door, add a handle (two actually, one that unlatches things and a big fat one to pull,) add a pocket for stuff, add a few mirror and window controls, add a change holder, add a speaker or two, use six materials in 2 s.f. - after viewing them all, I pulled back and thought they looked quite clunky. And the dashboards - please go on a diet! But they are safe designs, we are all used to them. Heck, I own a 5-series Bimmer so I am not a disbeliever. Aston Martin and Ferrari were distinguished by just being prettier designs, but still I'd argue additive in nature and less unique than Tesla. I know unique doesn't necessarily = good, and I may be way off on this, but I think in 2-3 years you will see all these other manufacturers migrate towards Tesla's approach - simpler, flowing surfaces that become functional or define functional areas. The touchscreen and voice are the future, so less simply stuff is the result. I am all in.
Look, we're all creatures of habit, and I agree we shouldn't compromise safety for looks - digging in the glove box for sunglasses at 65 MPH = no good. So a future add-in console may serve many of you well, and I hope Tesla makes a beautiful, functional, flowing one. But give yourself a few months to try what's there and reconsider. I bet most of you don't walk down the street with a center console under your arm so it's easy to get to your sunglasses, chapstick, change, dried up pen, and a dry-cleaning receipt. Try to meet the car where it is and see if you like the simpler results.
I'm an architect and at our firm we try very hard to marry performance and design so they are inextricably wed - they are the same thing if we have really succeeded. I like to challenge my teams w/a mantra of 'fewer, simple, bolder moves' when we design. Look at the interiors of all the competitors (especially if stay under $100K). I think you'll see when they decided they needed something new, they added it. 'More, messier, weaker moves' in my opinion. I'm happy if Tesla doesn't add anything to the design except quality materials and workmanship.
Tesla isn't perfect - it never will be. But it's headed in the right direction on many fronts - that's why we're all fans. Even the interior.
Keep providing feedback - I'd love the X and the next gen. S to be even better than what we're all about to buy. Can't wait!
Cattledog
gg_got_a_tesla
Model S: VIN 65513, Model 3: VIN 1913
Mycroft
Life happens
Cattledog, I don't have a problem with the decisions to not provide a center console, or even the crappy sliding arm rests. The problem I have, and what I posted in the TM forum, is that I felt strung along all this time. I was told that the interior was only 90% complete and that nearly everything in it was subject to change. When I asked specifically about door pockets, I was told that they would likely be there in the final version, but that the betas had to be slapped together.
Since the lead time on parts is so long, Tesla must have known back in October that the arm rests were final and that the doors were final. There were many, many posts in the forums about these two topics alone. But Tesla just kept repeating the 90% mantra and we waited patiently to see the final interior. Now we see the final interior and it's virtually identical to the October interiors. So yes, I feel strung along.
Since the lead time on parts is so long, Tesla must have known back in October that the arm rests were final and that the doors were final. There were many, many posts in the forums about these two topics alone. But Tesla just kept repeating the 90% mantra and we waited patiently to see the final interior. Now we see the final interior and it's virtually identical to the October interiors. So yes, I feel strung along.
Hi,
Nice posting and welcome to the forum.
May I ask where you plan to store your stuff without an add-in console and in-door storage? :smile:
Larry
Mycroft - That's fair, I hear you. Tesla has communications work to do. Hard to know if they ignored people's comments from 5-6 months ago or listened, considered, and stayed with essentially where they were. If they knew they weren't going to change things they should have manned up (sorry for the sexist comment) and if they considered it and decided not to change they should have communicated it. Hopefully they'll learn from this going forward and improve. While we may be critical, they will likely NEVER have as great a home game as they have right now, so like they need to get past the Beta phase of carmaking, so they need to on PR as well.
While I've followed this for years, I didn't pony up my deposit until January, so many of you have ridden more and greater waves than I have. I do think they are trying to break ground in likely the hardest industry to do so in the world - what other product is as complex, expensive, and scrutinized as cars? There are probably less than a dozen people/teams alive who have tried to start a car company, so there are fewer companies to learn from than say, technology or restaurants or architecture firms! That doesn't mean they get a free pass, they chose to start this. But they certainly get my great admiration along with my criticisms. I know none of us can make the other(s) like something they don't, but I can't imagine any of us liked every aspect of the car we bought - I hate the shape of my BMW's front lights, for example, there's not great rear legroom for a midsized luxury sedan, and I want to rip the scalp off the designer that stuck an airdam on the front that's 4.5" off the ground when practically every wheelstop in the WORLD is 5" or 6" tall - (maybe they are 4"/10cm. in Germany), etc.
Everyone's comments considered, I still think Tesla's hitting on more coils than other carmakers.
While I've followed this for years, I didn't pony up my deposit until January, so many of you have ridden more and greater waves than I have. I do think they are trying to break ground in likely the hardest industry to do so in the world - what other product is as complex, expensive, and scrutinized as cars? There are probably less than a dozen people/teams alive who have tried to start a car company, so there are fewer companies to learn from than say, technology or restaurants or architecture firms! That doesn't mean they get a free pass, they chose to start this. But they certainly get my great admiration along with my criticisms. I know none of us can make the other(s) like something they don't, but I can't imagine any of us liked every aspect of the car we bought - I hate the shape of my BMW's front lights, for example, there's not great rear legroom for a midsized luxury sedan, and I want to rip the scalp off the designer that stuck an airdam on the front that's 4.5" off the ground when practically every wheelstop in the WORLD is 5" or 6" tall - (maybe they are 4"/10cm. in Germany), etc.
Everyone's comments considered, I still think Tesla's hitting on more coils than other carmakers.
AustinPowers
Total Smeghead
Quite.
I also can't see any changes worth the extra 10% they said would be different.
And reading all the posts about missing storage space makes me wonder exactly what the Tesla folks were smoking when they devised that interior design. I know they wanted it to be different but they also wanted it to be better than in conventional cars. Okay, so I personally prefer conventional buttons and therefor don't really like the touchscreen, but that would not be a dealbreaker for me. But when even the usability angle is overlooked by excluding such essentials as the various compartments for all the small items you need in your car (and I'm not even talking about a mobile phone as with bluetooth I can keep that in my pocket), then I really start to rethink my decision to get a Model S.
Let's be honest, the car looks great, and I'm sure that the driving experience will be awesome. But 99% of the time with your car you tend to spend INSIDE, and if you have a marvellous machine on the outside and the tech side, but the usability is worse than a 1980 BMW (ok, that is truly exaggerating, but I'm sure you get the picture) - and enough potential buyers feel that way - then Tesla really has a problem. Unless Jaff buys the whole production of course... :tongue:
Larry - Good question, and perhaps my BMW has prepped me well for this exact issue. First, I never use the door pockets - seriously, maybe twice in the last decade so I doubt I'll miss that. The BMW center console has a teeny tray in between the driver and passenger armrests - not good for much, probably 1.5" wide, 1" deep, 6" long. It doesn't fit my wallet, glasses get scratched there, etc.. I essentially use it as the world's smallest trash can or long term storage for pennies, chapstick, paperclips and pens, so I think I can get around that. And the cupholders, don't get me started on them - the WORST cupholders in the world - probably rejects from a Yugo. Spindly plastics arms that unfold from the in front of the gearshift. They have a small tray that is angled so a small drink barely fits on the driver's and balances precariously on the passenger's. Big drinks, forget it, they don't fit unless you break the spindly arms. I never use my glove box, has the manual and insurance card, open it once a year for re-inspection. I guess I can see why the console/pocket part isn't a big issue with me, I don't use 'em.
I see my biggest issue as the wallet - I don't like to sit on it if driving a long time (though it will be lighter after S purchase!) M-F 8-6 I carry a small briefcase a lot, so it will sit in the floor rails and stuff will sit in it - right now I toss it on either the front or back seat, so I am tempting fate with projectiles already, have for my 33 years of driving. Saturday, going to my son's soccer game, I don't know - mid-length drive. Sunday going to church - three blocks. Maybe Tesla will make a cool, lightweight folio that sells for $200 that can hold an ipad, wallet, pen, change!, phone and it can wedge into the floor rails.So I'm not sure yet, I trust they'll have a solution (I might get a console if I like it) and I'll adjust if they don't.
For a number of years I drove 1966 MB 230SL, I recall it didn't have any console, some little teak box on the floor I think that was about 6"x6".
I see my biggest issue as the wallet - I don't like to sit on it if driving a long time (though it will be lighter after S purchase!) M-F 8-6 I carry a small briefcase a lot, so it will sit in the floor rails and stuff will sit in it - right now I toss it on either the front or back seat, so I am tempting fate with projectiles already, have for my 33 years of driving. Saturday, going to my son's soccer game, I don't know - mid-length drive. Sunday going to church - three blocks. Maybe Tesla will make a cool, lightweight folio that sells for $200 that can hold an ipad, wallet, pen, change!, phone and it can wedge into the floor rails.So I'm not sure yet, I trust they'll have a solution (I might get a console if I like it) and I'll adjust if they don't.
For a number of years I drove 1966 MB 230SL, I recall it didn't have any console, some little teak box on the floor I think that was about 6"x6".
Can we refrain from the cheap shots?
Personally, I'm just jealous of everyone that's been able to see the cars -- couldn't make it to Toronto when the prototype/alpha came through. Grateful for all the pics/video posted here though :biggrin:
Arnold Panz
Model Sig 304, VIN 542
+1 Cattledog!! If I wanted a BMW or MB that was electric, I'd wait for them to come out with one. I want a Tesla because Telsa is trying to change how we think about cars, and the whole car buying experience. It's not just about going EV with a car that is otherwise a copycat of every upscale ICE on the road. I'm no architect, but I love that Tesla is going for minimalist design in the interior. Like anything else new, it'll take some getting used to.
It reminds me a bit of the story Malcolm Gladwell told in Blink about the makers of the Aeron chair. For decades, an "executive" chair was a giant stuffed leather chair, which looked nice but was actually not practical or comfortable. The designers of the Aeron went against everyone's advice(including focus groups) because they believed they had designed someone better, and now you hardly ever see the old style chairs, even in the executive suites. Telsa is rethinking how we should think about every aspect of the car business. They might now hit a home run with every idea/change, but I want to give them some rope to experiment because I totally agree with their mindset.
It reminds me a bit of the story Malcolm Gladwell told in Blink about the makers of the Aeron chair. For decades, an "executive" chair was a giant stuffed leather chair, which looked nice but was actually not practical or comfortable. The designers of the Aeron went against everyone's advice(including focus groups) because they believed they had designed someone better, and now you hardly ever see the old style chairs, even in the executive suites. Telsa is rethinking how we should think about every aspect of the car business. They might now hit a home run with every idea/change, but I want to give them some rope to experiment because I totally agree with their mindset.
+1. Nohing ruder than pointing out someone's manners NOT in private, then taunting him about it to boot.
Jaff was just enthusiastic. Give him a break already.
Jaff was just enthusiastic. Give him a break already.
AustinPowers
Total Smeghead
Enthusiastic? At first I thought he was a forum troll trying to incite reactions just by being over the top with his statements.
On second thought, I got the impression he was for real and was not enthusiastic but rather freaking out as if all of us who offered serious and valid points were unfairly criticizing Tesla.
If a company boasts so loudly about their car / philosophy etc. being better than that of any other carmaker on the planet then they have to be prepared for some comments at least - especially if the product is in fact not at all what they are pronouncing it to be.
So @Jaff: I admire your enthusiasm about Tesla and the Model S - I have been a raving fan of the Model S for years, but the more details are revealed the more the realism sets in and the more I start to compare the car to those models that Tesla says are inferior (because that is what they are implying when they say that Model S will be "the best car in ANY category" as Elon put it so humbly) then the less enthusiastic I become. Sadly, because I really believe in Tesla's good intentions.
Perhaps we should all rest for a while and wait until we see the first production models on the road and in the stores. After all, we are still discussing Beta cars...
And by the way I didn't mean to be rude but simply ironic. Sorry if that didn't come across - may I remind you again, I am not a native speaker. You are very welcome to discuss the topic with me in German...
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