Have you lost faith in Tesla?

[Zilla91]

works fine for me and much better than the bmw one for sure. I tell my watch to wake it up then set climate the unlock charge port

So you use a third party app. Glad to see we're comparing apples to oranges

Maybe there's a good third party BMW app out there that you don't know about.

 

[Sean.]

my work EV scheme , makes EV's the sensible option. I'll just keep taking it back in and making a scene till i'm happy (not getting a courtesy car is a pain, but i'm happy burning through uber vouchers). At least I can give it back after 3 years and hopefully other charging will have caught up.

Get out of it whilst still in warranty. Trust me it’s fine getting Uber vouchers - once you’re out of W they don’t care about courtesy anything and you will have one of the most expensive hourly rates in the business to look forward to on the bills.

Maybe the S and X are particularly more complex and/or badly screwed together than MIC 3 & Y cars, but they aren’t cheap motors when bits start wearing and failing. The myth of the low maintenance EV has been exactly that for me.

 

[Js1977]

So you use a third party app. Glad to see we're comparing apples to oranges

Maybe there's a good third party BMW app out there that you don't know about.

There isn't and im not comparing anything to anything. It's just what works for me towards someone saying superchargers are the main reason for owning one. I really have no quibbles with whatever anyone wants or does not want, it's just the sodding winging apparently desperate people that does my nut. Just get rid of the things if you dont like them, it's as simple as that for me. If its not for you its your problem

 

[interbear]

On balance I’d have to say yes. I loved my first Tesla, Model 3 bought new in 2019 and was, only those few years ago, at the leading edge in terms of EV tech. A real novelty factor and I thoroughly enjoyed it, it wasn’t as well built as the Audi that preceded it but not many cars are and to be fair to my Fremont built 3, it had hardly any problems, just a couple of early snagging issues. From a driving experience, charging experience, range and sheer fun it was a brilliant car. We changed it to a Y last year for rather mundane practical reasons, we wanted a hatchback for the dog. I liked the Y, it was a bit more solidly built than the 3 and nice to drive, but it didn’t have the same fun factor. Buckets of space of course and super practical.

So why have I lost some faith? Too much focus on infotainment rather than improving basic car features. I don’t need more games in the car and I don’t need a light show. I want to be able to put auto main beam headlights on when I choose not when autopilot dictates, and I’d like auto wipers that work consistently. Annoying door handles/switches and touchscreen glovebox access that frustrates rather than add any value. Form over function. Increasing wait times at superchargers on longer journeys. Huge increase in insurance costs. All of these are annoyances I could live with if I really needed the driving performance and long range of the Tesla, which remain strong selling points v the competition, for now. But I concluded I don’t need either of those things so have moved on. No regrets though, I enjoyed my Tesla years but am now settled on using our ICE vehicle for longer trips and a little hatchback EV that has more “typical car” ergonomics for local day to driving. Seems to be a more appropriate mix of vehicles for us right now. And the dog is happy in both so all good.

 

[Zilla91]

Just get rid of the things if you dont like them

You make it sound so simple, meanwhile, back in the real world Tesla have destroyed any residual value making getting rid of them an unrealistic option.

Back on the subject of using your watch to do something, it reminded me that cutting edge tech company Tesla don't provide a smart watch app while the BMW app you were talking down does.

1-0 to the "legacy" brand when it comes to tech

 

[Pink Duck]

The end of RHD S/X in UK shows disinterest in this market. FSD Beta-style visualisation haven't reached these shores, nor Safety Score, nor FSD Beta itself, or even the ability for auto-lane change on highways since UNECE law changed this year to permit it. Some recent software update countered this feeling slightly by finally offering British English for voice recognition. The drop of static stalks from steering wheel across all models is another poor decision, losing brand favour. Though I suspect I’ll either stick with my S long-term, or swap it for a Raven edition after drivetrain warranty ends.

 

[UrbanSplash]

On balance I’d have to say yes. I loved my first Tesla, Model 3 bought new in 2019 and was, only those few years ago, at the leading edge in terms of EV tech. A real novelty factor and I thoroughly enjoyed it, it wasn’t as well built as the Audi that preceded it but not many cars are and to be fair to my Fremont built 3, it had hardly any problems, just a couple of early snagging issues. From a driving experience, charging experience, range and sheer fun it was a brilliant car. We changed it to a Y last year for rather mundane practical reasons, we wanted a hatchback for the dog. I liked the Y, it was a bit more solidly built than the 3 and nice to drive, but it didn’t have the same fun factor. Buckets of space of course and super practical.

So why have I lost some faith? Too much focus on infotainment rather than improving basic car features. I don’t need more games in the car and I don’t need a light show. I want to be able to put auto main beam headlights on when I choose not when autopilot dictates, and I’d like auto wipers that work consistently. Annoying door handles/switches and touchscreen glovebox access that frustrates rather than add any value. Form over function. Increasing wait times at superchargers on longer journeys. Huge increase in insurance costs. All of these are annoyances I could live with if I really needed the driving performance and long range of the Tesla, which remain strong selling points v the competition, for now. But I concluded I don’t need either of those things so have moved on. No regrets though, I enjoyed my Tesla years but am now settled on using our ICE vehicle for longer trips and a little hatchback EV that has more “typical car” ergonomics for local day to driving. Seems to be a more appropriate mix of vehicles for us right now. And the dog is happy in both so all good.

I’m exactly the same. Had a 3 and loved it. 2019. Changed to a Y last year for practical reasons. I just feel zero fun now. Tesla are nuts. Superchargers take longer. Time for a change if the Y wasn’t worth 20p

 

[yessuz]

it's like being in an abusive relationship.

you want this thing to work out, but you are constantly beaten by all the tesla nonsense.

 

[Js1977]

You make it sound so simple, meanwhile, back in the real world Tesla have destroyed any residual value making getting rid of them an unrealistic option.

Back on the subject of using your watch to do something, it reminded me that cutting edge tech company Tesla don't provide a smart watch app while the BMW app you were talking down does.

1-0 to the "legacy" brand when it comes to tech

I don't know what you are on about these residuals... I bought two (three as one got replaced), thats 109k written off. This money is in the car fund now and never to be seen again until I get a buss pass and/or am unfit to drive.

As for the bmw watch app, never bothered, the one on the phone was painstakingly slow/laggy already. Unfortunately their backend is rubbish. Apple watch app for tesla works superbly and keeps getting updated and can now be used as an extra car key, works with siri etc...lovelly and well worth the five i paid for it and can share with the family (bonus)

Honestly, it really is that simples

 

[Zilla91]

I don't know what you are on about these residuals...

the one on the phone was painstakingly slow/laggy already. Unfortunately their backend is rubbish.

I can't take you seriously, you're obviously in some kind of alternative reality if you think residuals haven't taken a hit and that the Tesla app works faster than the BMW app.

Honestly, it really is that simples

I'm happy you're brave enough to supply your authentication credentials to a 3rd party.

I'd love to see how insurance would react if your car was stolen by someone who exploited a token you handed over to someone willy-nilly

 

[Js1977]

I can't take you seriously, you're obviously in some kind of alternative reality if you think residuals haven't taken a hit and that the Tesla app works faster than the BMW app.

You take it as you want it. I have no reason to lie and not biased having used it as well as others. The BMW i3 has been written off but I would still have another as spare as its a fun car and the turning circle is awesome.

I'm happy you're brave enough to supply your authentication credentials to a 3rd party.

I'd love to see how insurance would react if your car was stolen by someone who exploited a token you handed over to someone willy-nilly

Im very IT savvy maybe that is the difference between us and to be fair if the thieves took it, I probably wouldn't want to see it back ... If I wasn't brave, I wouldn't leave the house

 

[Leytonstone]

The end of RHD S/X in UK shows disinterest in this market. FSD Beta-style visualisation haven't reached these shores, nor Safety Score, nor FSD Beta itself, or even the ability for auto-lane change on highways since UNECE law changed this year to permit it. Some recent software update countered this feeling slightly by finally offering British English for voice recognition. The drop of static stalks from steering wheel across all models is another poor decision, losing brand favour. Though I suspect I’ll either stick with my S long-term, or swap it for a Raven edition after drivetrain warranty ends.

You mean drive unit warranty, right? My drive unit cover ends in 2028 which is all very well but the basic warranty expires this time next year. That's pretty dang close for a vehicle that eats front driveshafts annually, as mine and countless others do.

tl;dr not going to be anywhere near a Model S or X after 2024 and I'd suggest if you fancy a Raven you're running out of time too!

 

[interbear]

I’m exactly the same. Had a 3 and loved it. 2019. Changed to a Y last year for practical reasons. I just feel zero fun now. Tesla are nuts. Superchargers take longer. Time for a change if the Y wasn’t worth 20p

I was also concerned about Model Y depreciation but decided to look at the bigger picture over my entire Tesla experience. My 2019 Model 3 sold last year for an excellent price when I replaced it with the Model Y. The Model Y sold a month ago for not so good a price in comparison, obviously given current price movements. However over the two of them it totalled £17k depreciation over almost 4 years. Which isn’t that bad really. Sold both via Motorway, good experience both times.

On the fun factor front our EV is now a wee Peugeot e-208 GT hatchback, it’s not as quick but it really good fun to drive compared to the Y. I’ve always liked little French hatches though.

 

[Zilla91]

Im very IT savvy maybe that is the difference between us

There it is again, that alternative reality you inhabit. I assure you my IT credentials and career trump yours

 

[DeejUK]

I only pop on here rarely now, and mostly to see people's reactions to things like the RHD S/X situation. Reading Electrek has become an exercise in schadenfreude and amusement at what bonkers decision Elon has come up with lately - like approving all hires personally. I'm amused that this thread is still going strong, so there must be something to it!

I went from being certain that the next car I bought would be a Tesla, to my current position of "there's no way I'd buy another Tesla unless there are some dramatic changes." I'm still enjoying my free supercharging in my Model X when I'm not paying for servicing to ensure that the doors still open correctly and that the steering wheel still turns, and not being annoyed that Autopilot is now much worse than it was six years ago.

Snark aside, best wishes to everyone loving the Tesla experience, and I do hope they turn it around. With all these new factories and declining demand, I'm not sure how well it's going to work out long-term.

 

[Sean.]

I went from being certain that the next car I bought would be a Tesla, to my current position of "there's no way I'd buy another Tesla unless there are some dramatic changes."

What turned you in particular? I recall you were pretty bullish about staying with T

 

[mab74]

Well, my car has been in the service centre for months now. In that time it's lost several thousand £ in value. So, yes. Was 1,500 miles over the warranty mileage and the cabin heater failed (no sign of any fault leading up to it) rendering the car useless, unable to even open the doors. There's apparently a worldwide shortage of the part to fix it, presumably because it's a design defect and common failure. Or maybe Tesla are awful at getting spares shipped. My money's on both.

 

[DeejUK]

What turned you in particular? I recall you were pretty bullish about staying with T

There are quite a few things, I think.

• Elon has too much influence, and is making poor choices (elaborated below).
• Elon understands the value of continuous delivery, continuous improvement, and simplification. However, he's been fortunate to be correct a few too many times, and now thinks he's right in every situation and makes unilateral design decisions that are completely out-of-step with the market. I have no confidence that the company will make good decisions in the future, based on the yoke and removal of turn stalks.
• Elon has clearly learned from American politicians and now occupies the same space as professional wrestlers. I'm sure part of him believes in sustainability and all that, but it was also his ticket to megabucks. His contempt for the public becomes evermore apparent as more lies are told or mistruths implied (350kW chargers being a child's toy, FSD being ready at any point in the near future, robotaxis, Roadster...). It's clear that he realised that he can pump up the stock price by talking absolute cobblers, and then if he's lucky Tesla will be able to deliver on it, and if not there appears to be no accountability or negative consequence. His record with factually-accurate statements is now about as low as most political leaders, and I believe what he has to say about as much as I believe anything that Boris Johnson says (ie not much).
• I believe Elon's also got contempt and disregard for humans in general. His personal life is suggestive of someone with sociopathic tendencies (infidelities, lack of commitment) and the way he treats staff also leads me to believe this. For instance, the latest thing of vetting all hires - this is clearly ridiculous and won't scale, but the purpose from his point of view is to put the fear of Elon into everyone and make every super-conservative when hiring. This fear-based management is not something I appreciate, even if it works. The 'right' way of dealing with this would be making sure that there are organisational processes and feedback loops in place to ensure hiring quality remains. The engineering decisions he makes also suggest to me that he's more interested in what he thinks people should want than what they actually do - see yoke, USS, turn stalks. I wouldn't be surprised if his autism has led to him systematising humans, and then his keen eye for efficiency and simplicity has led him to the conclusion that we're something that needs to be optimised away. Look at Boring Company: yes, you can make tunnels with absolutely no safety and escape contingency much more cheaply than those that are safe for human use. But who cares about safety when you can make something more efficient?
• Optimus demonstrates a key (but maybe valid) contradiction in what Elon says and what he does. He tells us all that we need to be really worried about AI (then starts OpenAI). OpenAI move in a different direction than he wants, and he then starts a competitor, whilst also signing an open letter suggesting that we pause AI development for six months. If we need to worry about AI, then the absolute last thing anyone should do (after teaching LLM-based systems to code and giving them access to the Internet, whoops!) is create a cheap, scalable, standard interface through which they can interact with the world and learn from it. Everything that exists purely digitally is going to be learned by ML very quickly, as the iteration time is orders of magnitude faster than us squishies can manage. Everything that requires physical interaction is way, way slower, and is much safer from being dominated by rampant AI. The digital/physical divide should be, to anyone worried about malevolent AI, a bulwark against it. But what do we see? Elon recognising how to make things much more efficient, make a boatload of money, and also provide AI with a means to learn about the physical world faster than anything anyone else is doing. Maybe it's a case of "well, other people will do it anyway," but I'm not sure I see that as a defence, and I expect he's just seeing dollar signs.

With regards to the ownership experience:

• There have been too many bold proclamations that have failed to materialise: FSD, Roadster 2, Cybertruck, solar roofs being ready in any reasonable timeframe; stated lowest price of any of their vehicles; 4680 batteries; megacasting (although that's slowly starting to happen). It's all over-promise and under-deliver, and I can't believe anything Tesla tell us about future products, including ones we've paid deposits for.
• Regressions in advertised functionality. I cancelled my MYP after years of delays because of the lack of radar and USS. Losing free supercharging and premium connectivity were also factors, along with saving £20k.
• Regressions in existing functionality. Autopilot in my MX has gotten worse over the years because of Elon's dictatorial engineering decisions (removal of radar from the software stack). I expect USS will be the next bit of existing hardware that will no longer be supported in software.
• Servicing - when Tesla had a small number of high-value customers, service was much better. Now it's more like McDonald's than Michelin-star. It's the way it has to be, and I get it, but I don't enjoy it. Additionally the app is in my experience buggy and irritating - I cannot get cost estimates through the app. At all. Over the course of months, and several servicing incidents, every time I have to get them to email me an invoice. Messages go missing, invoices show up as not paid, and no-one at Tesla can or will do anything about it.
• Pricing is way too volatile. I understand the business benefits of this, but it causes harm to consumers (see: contempt for mere humans).
• Reliability isn't great. I used to love over-the-air updates, but then they started making my car permanently worse rather than better, and I would rather have physical reliability, and service centres that don't rip me off when there is a problem. The horn, doors and turn signals in my 2013 cheapo Renault Zoe have never failed. All of these have failed in my £108k Model X.
• I don't have great confidence that the company will be around in a few years' time. Demand is down, prices are down, factories are expanding, the range isn't being refreshed quickly enough to maintain interest, the things are common as heck meaning that the early adopter market is going to shun them for something more novel, they're not developing new halo products successfully enough, Elon keeps making unilateral design decisions that are out of touch, FSD is at worst a lawsuit liability waiting to happen and at best a reputational liability that's already happening, service can't keep up, competition is increasing, and the value of the company is largely built on Elon's ability to inspire with dubious statements. I also think we're due to hit a bottleneck with EV infrastructure, and in a year or two's time it will become very obvious that there aren't enough chargers, there'll be a big public outcry, and then the private sector will catch up. I was at Exeter services not so long ago, and it was simultaneously cool and worrying seeing so many EVs 'queueing' (it was a bun-fight) for the non-Superchargers there. EV demand will take a temporary hit as a result.

That's probably about it, I think. Elon's engineering mindset needs to be combined with good customer-centric product management, and Tesla needs a corporate structure with grown-ups that can refuse his foibles.

 

[Adopado]

Well, my car has been in the service centre for months now. In that time it's lost several thousand £ in value. So, yes. Was 1,500 miles over the warranty mileage and the cabin heater failed (no sign of any fault leading up to it) rendering the car useless, unable to even open the doors. There's apparently a worldwide shortage of the part to fix it, presumably because it's a design defect and common failure. Or maybe Tesla are awful at getting spares shipped. My money's on both.

Maybe it's a relatively common failure when the numbers are extrapolated internationally but I AFAIK yours is the only report that has appeared on the UK/Ireland forum (so far). Getting certain spares has most certainly been an issue of course.

Edit: I wonder if this source is an option given that you are out of warranty:

Tesla Model 3 heater for sale | eBay

Find great deals on eBay for Tesla Model 3 heater. Shop with confidence.

www.ebay.co.uk

 

[Sean.]

There are quite a few things, I think.

• Elon has too much influence, and is making poor choices (elaborated below).
• Elon understands the value of continuous delivery, continuous improvement, and simplification. However, he's been fortunate to be correct a few too many times, and now thinks he's right in every situation and makes unilateral design decisions that are completely out-of-step with the market. I have no confidence that the company will make good decisions in the future, based on the yoke and removal of turn stalks.
• Elon has clearly learned from American politicians and now occupies the same space as professional wrestlers. I'm sure part of him believes in sustainability and all that, but it was also his ticket to megabucks. His contempt for the public becomes evermore apparent as more lies are told or mistruths implied (350kW chargers being a child's toy, FSD being ready at any point in the near future, robotaxis, Roadster...). It's clear that he realised that he can pump up the stock price by talking absolute cobblers, and then if he's lucky Tesla will be able to deliver on it, and if not there appears to be no accountability or negative consequence. His record with factually-accurate statements is now about as low as most political leaders, and I believe what he has to say about as much as I believe anything that Boris Johnson says (ie not much).
• I believe Elon's also got contempt and disregard for humans in general. His personal life is suggestive of someone with sociopathic tendencies (infidelities, lack of commitment) and the way he treats staff also leads me to believe this. For instance, the latest thing of vetting all hires - this is clearly ridiculous and won't scale, but the purpose from his point of view is to put the fear of Elon into everyone and make every super-conservative when hiring. This fear-based management is not something I appreciate, even if it works. The 'right' way of dealing with this would be making sure that there are organisational processes and feedback loops in place to ensure hiring quality remains. The engineering decisions he makes also suggest to me that he's more interested in what he thinks people should want than what they actually do - see yoke, USS, turn stalks. I wouldn't be surprised if his autism has led to him systematising humans, and then his keen eye for efficiency and simplicity has led him to the conclusion that we're something that needs to be optimised away. Look at Boring Company: yes, you can make tunnels with absolutely no safety and escape contingency much more cheaply than those that are safe for human use. But who cares about safety when you can make something more efficient?
• Optimus demonstrates a key (but maybe valid) contradiction in what Elon says and what he does. He tells us all that we need to be really worried about AI (then starts OpenAI). OpenAI move in a different direction than he wants, and he then starts a competitor, whilst also signing an open letter suggesting that we pause AI development for six months. If we need to worry about AI, then the absolute last thing anyone should do (after teaching LLM-based systems to code and giving them access to the Internet, whoops!) is create a cheap, scalable, standard interface through which they can interact with the world and learn from it. Everything that exists purely digitally is going to be learned by ML very quickly, as the iteration time is orders of magnitude faster than us squishies can manage. Everything that requires physical interaction is way, way slower, and is much safer from being dominated by rampant AI. The digital/physical divide should be, to anyone worried about malevolent AI, a bulwark against it. But what do we see? Elon recognising how to make things much more efficient, make a boatload of money, and also provide AI with a means to learn about the physical world faster than anything anyone else is doing. Maybe it's a case of "well, other people will do it anyway," but I'm not sure I see that as a defence, and I expect he's just seeing dollar signs.

With regards to the ownership experience:

• There have been too many bold proclamations that have failed to materialise: FSD, Roadster 2, Cybertruck, solar roofs being ready in any reasonable timeframe; stated lowest price of any of their vehicles; 4680 batteries; megacasting (although that's slowly starting to happen). It's all over-promise and under-deliver, and I can't believe anything Tesla tell us about future products, including ones we've paid deposits for.
• Regressions in advertised functionality. I cancelled my MYP after years of delays because of the lack of radar and USS. Losing free supercharging and premium connectivity were also factors, along with saving £20k.
• Regressions in existing functionality. Autopilot in my MX has gotten worse over the years because of Elon's dictatorial engineering decisions (removal of radar from the software stack). I expect USS will be the next bit of existing hardware that will no longer be supported in software.
• Servicing - when Tesla had a small number of high-value customers, service was much better. Now it's more like McDonald's than Michelin-star. It's the way it has to be, and I get it, but I don't enjoy it. Additionally the app is in my experience buggy and irritating - I cannot get cost estimates through the app. At all. Over the course of months, and several servicing incidents, every time I have to get them to email me an invoice. Messages go missing, invoices show up as not paid, and no-one at Tesla can or will do anything about it.
• Pricing is way too volatile. I understand the business benefits of this, but it causes harm to consumers (see: contempt for mere humans).
• Reliability isn't great. I used to love over-the-air updates, but then they started making my car permanently worse rather than better, and I would rather have physical reliability, and service centres that don't rip me off when there is a problem. The horn, doors and turn signals in my 2013 cheapo Renault Zoe have never failed. All of these have failed in my £108k Model X.
• I don't have great confidence that the company will be around in a few years' time. Demand is down, prices are down, factories are expanding, the range isn't being refreshed quickly enough to maintain interest, the things are common as heck meaning that the early adopter market is going to shun them for something more novel, they're not developing new halo products successfully enough, Elon keeps making unilateral design decisions that are out of touch, FSD is at worst a lawsuit liability waiting to happen and at best a reputational liability that's already happening, service can't keep up, competition is increasing, and the value of the company is largely built on Elon's ability to inspire with dubious statements. I also think we're due to hit a bottleneck with EV infrastructure, and in a year or two's time it will become very obvious that there aren't enough chargers, there'll be a big public outcry, and then the private sector will catch up. I was at Exeter services not so long ago, and it was simultaneously cool and worrying seeing so many EVs 'queueing' (it was a bun-fight) for the non-Superchargers there. EV demand will take a temporary hit as a result.

That's probably about it, I think. Elon's engineering mindset needs to be combined with good customer-centric product management, and Tesla needs a corporate structure with grown-ups that can refuse his foibles.

Thank you. That was a very thorough and considered response. I too have similar thoughts and especially related to customer service attitudes which are now up there with the worst of what I ever experienced with Audi. And that took some beating.

Good luck with whatever you move to next. I’m half out the door already with the Taycan and when my Eletre arrives it will be bye bye for good.