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Nope - I heard a few specific examples where automation was put into place, then found to not be working correctly, and then replaced with humans. One had to do with spot welding.
I do not believe you. More precisely, I do not believe whoever told you that. For one thing, Tesla is notoriously secretive about details of what is or isn't working, because it's part of their competitive edge in manufacturing. The only thing we've heard officially is stuff about conveyor belts or part movement. Secondly, spot welding was the very first application of robots on production lines. The chances of that being done by humans is essentially zero.

I also note that you NEVER give any direct references for anything you say (Montana Skeptic doesn't count, since he never gives references either), while always asking others to justify their positions.
 
Good to hear, I started off my career in Big 4 accounting, now a mix of M&A, due diligence, and Corp. finance. I would say my experience is more than most, less than some
I respect people who not only state their opinions, but leverage those opinions. You seem to be one of those.
The point, though, is that I didn't know. I only knew that this company was different than any I'd seen before. And that's why I bought, not because of the numbers. Because if I'd relied on the numbers, I would have stayed far away.
@bonnie is the prototypical well-informed early stage investor. I respect that too.

My own history has included both short positions and long ones, with a decent amount of highly leveraged positions over the few benighted years when I was enamoured of Black-Scholes (in 1973 it was all the rage and I had access to an IBM 360-195, so I was utterly convinced) and ignored the boundary conditions, so my enthusiasm was short-lived). Luckily for me I quit long before Scholes and Merton. Then I became a consultant to some which narrowly avoided disaster in 1998. (Long Term Capital Management is the reference. he who ignores boundary conditions will lose, sooner or later.

Back to @bonnie. She did an enormous amount of homework before making a highly speculative investment. Here posts here have demonstrated the truth of that statement.

FWIW, since burning myself in the early 1970's I have been very, very careful to know the difference between my beliefs and facts. The most adamant bulls tend to ignore fundamentals. The most serious shorts do that too. Both of those are over-represented among TSLA investors.

A handful of often-ignored facts seem common to both:
1. They tend not to understand how growth rate affects earnings. (the poster child of the moment probably is AMZN);
2. They tend not to understand capital intensity in industrial companies (corollary: large investments always affect P&L negatively while they are happening);
3. They tend not to understand what happens when the inevitable delays end and serious production begins( two of my favourite examples are the Boeing B747 and B787);
4. They tend to ignore the emotional roller coaster that the three first items engender in securities markets;
5. They tend to overvalue opinions of grossly uninformed securities analysts.

So, since the mid-1970's I have invested only in things I think I understand, sort of like an updated Graham/Buffet approach [I hope].
That has mostly provided quite nice returns, but also requires inordinate amounts of time because when I no longer think I was well-informed I do sell.
I no longer leverage any of my investments. (of course one needs a certain amount of financial resources to do that)

Now for TSLA: I have given up trying to explain the investment life cycle when one tries to adopt new technologies. (e.g. Boeing B747 engine failures, B787 battery and diagnostic failures, Tesla products, all of them). Delays, mistakes and redesign abound. Product reliability for early adopters is horrible. Famously, securities analysts predict failure. As a serial early adopter (a few: NSU RO-80, Mazda R-100, Cessna Citation C525 (SN 41), Apple Newton). All of those worked poorly at first. Two of them were bought back by manufacturers, one went broke, the others nearly did. So, how does Tesla fit in?

I bought into TSLA early, but much later than did Bonnie. I flew to the US, rented an early Model S, was convinced the product could be successful, then studied everything I could.
Tesla developed what have become sustainable advantages in my opinion:
1. The cell-level quality control (check out the full transcript to the NTSB hearings on "lithium-ion batteries in transportation: https://www.ntsb.gov/news/events/Pages/2013_Lithium_Batteries_FRM-Presentations.aspx
https://www.ntsb.gov/news/events/Documents/2013_Lithium_Batteries_FRM-Panel3d-Mikolajczak.pdf
Anyone who takes the time to study those documents will understand that Tesla, and only Tesla, figured out how to safely, dependably and practically deeply li-ion batteries in cars. When they presented that Tesla had NEVER had a non-induced thermal runaway I knew they would conquer other engineering feats too. At the time not one li-ion user other than Tesla had such a record. Nobody else tracked and tested every single cell. Not Boeing, US Navy, nor any manufacturer.
2. The Battery Management System, nobody else had anything like it. Relatively cheap too, since it was essentially a Mercedes-Benz auto A/C system.
3. The entire approach to controls and performance built around continuous improvement and OTA updates. They did that ten years ago any nobody yet as really figured out how to replicate it.
4. The insistence on direct distribution;
5. Supercharging and Destination Charging.

Then I examined all the capital they had used to do all that and realised they are the most efficient user of capital in the automotive industry.

So, I bought in at $50 and have been regularly adding since then, even with some shares added at >$360. I'll keep adding.

Volatility comes with all that, especially with Tesla Energy having just begun to make credible deliveries, new factories for China, Model Y, Semi, Roadster and new soon to come larger scale utility/industrial products plus solar tiles. There will be more.

All that is unproven, so people will short the stock for some years. Shorts will continue to make and lose fortunes as they try to evaluate something that no statistical model on earth can evaluate. Why? All such models are stochastic and thus use past history to predict future actions. They are great when "all else remains equal" and all the boundary conditions do not change. TSLA is all about discontinuities. The models will not work with discontinuities.

Studying TSLA financial reports carefully will demonstrate that they will have a fairly easy time raising capital. Among other notable things many of their most valuable assets are not even ascribed value on their balance sheet, and even Gross Margin is understated by a considerable margin. Thoughtful people can recast the P&L on a steady-state basis, and can evaluate the assets based on market values. Those things are not achievable in GAAP, which is not intended to cope with very high industrial growth.

Shorting TSLA is popular, no doubt about that. It is also perilous, be sure about that.
 
I respect people who not only state their opinions, but leverage those opinions. You seem to be one of those.

@bonnie is the prototypical well-informed early stage investor. I respect that too.

My own history has included both short positions and long ones, with a decent amount of highly leveraged positions over the few benighted years when I was enamoured of Black-Scholes (in 1973 it was all the rage and I had access to an IBM 360-195, so I was utterly convinced) and ignored the boundary conditions, so my enthusiasm was short-lived). Luckily for me I quit long before Scholes and Merton. Then I became a consultant to some which narrowly avoided disaster in 1998. (Long Term Capital Management is the reference. he who ignores boundary conditions will lose, sooner or later.

Back to @bonnie. She did an enormous amount of homework before making a highly speculative investment. Here posts here have demonstrated the truth of that statement.

FWIW, since burning myself in the early 1970's I have been very, very careful to know the difference between my beliefs and facts. The most adamant bulls tend to ignore fundamentals. The most serious shorts do that too. Both of those are over-represented among TSLA investors.

A handful of often-ignored facts seem common to both:
1. They tend not to understand how growth rate affects earnings. (the poster child of the moment probably is AMZN);
2. They tend not to understand capital intensity in industrial companies (corollary: large investments always affect P&L negatively while they are happening);
3. They tend not to understand what happens when the inevitable delays end and serious production begins( two of my favourite examples are the Boeing B747 and B787);
4. They tend to ignore the emotional roller coaster that the three first items engender in securities markets;
5. They tend to overvalue opinions of grossly uninformed securities analysts.

So, since the mid-1970's I have invested only in things I think I understand, sort of like an updated Graham/Buffet approach [I hope].
That has mostly provided quite nice returns, but also requires inordinate amounts of time because when I no longer think I was well-informed I do sell.
I no longer leverage any of my investments. (of course one needs a certain amount of financial resources to do that)

Now for TSLA: I have given up trying to explain the investment life cycle when one tries to adopt new technologies. (e.g. Boeing B747 engine failures, B787 battery and diagnostic failures, Tesla products, all of them). Delays, mistakes and redesign abound. Product reliability for early adopters is horrible. Famously, securities analysts predict failure. As a serial early adopter (a few: NSU RO-80, Mazda R-100, Cessna Citation C525 (SN 41), Apple Newton). All of those worked poorly at first. Two of them were bought back by manufacturers, one went broke, the others nearly did. So, how does Tesla fit in?

I bought into TSLA early, but much later than did Bonnie. I flew to the US, rented an early Model S, was convinced the product could be successful, then studied everything I could.
Tesla developed what have become sustainable advantages in my opinion:
1. The cell-level quality control (check out the full transcript to the NTSB hearings on "lithium-ion batteries in transportation: https://www.ntsb.gov/news/events/Pages/2013_Lithium_Batteries_FRM-Presentations.aspx
https://www.ntsb.gov/news/events/Documents/2013_Lithium_Batteries_FRM-Panel3d-Mikolajczak.pdf
Anyone who takes the time to study those documents will understand that Tesla, and only Tesla, figured out how to safely, dependably and practically deeply li-ion batteries in cars. When they presented that Tesla had NEVER had a non-induced thermal runaway I knew they would conquer other engineering feats too. At the time not one li-ion user other than Tesla had such a record. Nobody else tracked and tested every single cell. Not Boeing, US Navy, nor any manufacturer.
2. The Battery Management System, nobody else had anything like it. Relatively cheap too, since it was essentially a Mercedes-Benz auto A/C system.
3. The entire approach to controls and performance built around continuous improvement and OTA updates. They did that ten years ago any nobody yet as really figured out how to replicate it.
4. The insistence on direct distribution;
5. Supercharging and Destination Charging.

Then I examined all the capital they had used to do all that and realised they are the most efficient user of capital in the automotive industry.

So, I bought in at $50 and have been regularly adding since then, even with some shares added at >$360. I'll keep adding.

Volatility comes with all that, especially with Tesla Energy having just begun to make credible deliveries, new factories for China, Model Y, Semi, Roadster and new soon to come larger scale utility/industrial products plus solar tiles. There will be more.

All that is unproven, so people will short the stock for some years. Shorts will continue to make and lose fortunes as they try to evaluate something that no statistical model on earth can evaluate. Why? All such models are stochastic and thus use past history to predict future actions. They are great when "all else remains equal" and all the boundary conditions do not change. TSLA is all about discontinuities. The models will not work with discontinuities.

Studying TSLA financial reports carefully will demonstrate that they will have a fairly easy time raising capital. Among other notable things many of their most valuable assets are not even ascribed value on their balance sheet, and even Gross Margin is understated by a considerable margin. Thoughtful people can recast the P&L on a steady-state basis, and can evaluate the assets based on market values. Those things are not achievable in GAAP, which is not intended to cope with very high industrial growth.

Shorting TSLA is popular, no doubt about that. It is also perilous, be sure about that.
This post is amazing!

But obviously still not as convincing or powerful as “I heard of some examples of some bad stuff that may have gone on at the factory.”
 
This is based on a comparison between employees and production figures in Fremont from the NUMMI days vs. Tesla.
Just so you might find something to check on. NUMMI was far less vertically integrated than is Tesla Fremont. NUMMI also produced effectively identical models with badge-engineering to differentiate them. Non of them ever produced at NUMMI were technological innovations but were duplicate production of vehicles already produced in other plants. You should carefully check that assumption that NUMMI =Tesla Fremont.
 
I just like to identify situations where the numbers make no sense, with bonus points if management has a history of issuing guidance that doesn’t come true. I’m fine with the tax incentives for green initiatives, I have to live on this planet too.

because of the stock's volatility, strong opinions from both bears and bulls, and the unprecedented potential of the company coupled to an (at present) horrific balance sheet and cash flow statements...coupled to a business (making and selling cars) that has historically been horrendous for investors...this stock will both bounce around like a jumping bean for awhile, and, more relevantly, after all the financial analysis I have read (and I have read a lot,as I also own a modest long position) I have no idea at all where the stock is going to be in the next few years. I personally see this in terms of thirds: There is about a one third possibility that the goals will be achieved and the company really will change the world, and we will all make lots of money; a one third chance that something bad will happen and those of us with long positions will lose a good bit of them; and a one third chance that the stock continues to bounce around at about these levels and we are still having this discussion two years from now [a very relevant consideration to those looking for a 'lower risk' short by buying long dated puts].
Now as a long, and very satisfied recent Model S owner, I would obviously prefer the first possibility, and not for merely financial reasons. One of the things you have to remember is that a lot of short sellers of this stock choose a sanctimonius, very self-righteous tone, like they think they are uncovering the next Enron or something. I have actually seen that comparison made. This to a company that makes cars in America; is run by a very very smart man who has a real claim to the word 'genius' and has the potential to remake the world a better place. This is not the kind of company people, outside of ICE manufacturers and dealerships, should be rooting to fail. But they do, and I for one, no offense, really would like to see all the preachy self-righteous short-sellers proved wrong, from a strictly emotional level. I feel as if I am going to enjoy you [and by you, I mean all the doomcrying short-seller brigade] watching you burn.
 
In Tesla’s case though, it’s not just one or two broad statements. It’s pretty consistent, quarter after quarter for several years, of claims that don’t come true. Again I would give a lot of slack for a few of these, but I’ve never seen missed guidance to this level before.
Agreed. This is a personal failure and weakness of Elon Musk. He still has a deep buried need to constantly impress, hence not being able to underpromise/overdeliver ever.
That doesn't mean Tesla is going to fail. If you actually look at Tesla's achievements in time, without burden of plans and self-set expectations, their achievements are out of this world great. They're newcomer and leading industry in few categories. That doesn't happen by a shyster shop... As OP said look at the forest which is Tesla overall achievements. You need to sift through the history, without looking at Elon's promises...
 
Agreed. This is a personal failure and weakness of Elon Musk. He still has a deep buried need to constantly impress, hence not being able to underpromise/overdeliver ever.
That doesn't mean Tesla is going to fail. If you actually look at Tesla's achievements in time, without burden of plans and self-set expectations, their achievements are out of this world great. They're newcomer and leading industry in few categories. That doesn't happen by a shyster shop... As OP said look at the forest which is Tesla overall achievements. You need to sift through the history, without looking at Elon's promises...
I agree with this. Many shorts seem to compare Tesla’s achievements only with its stated goals and promises. This is a very myopic view. One needs to step back and analyze its achievements independently. Then one sees the amazing things the company has done (and likely/hopefully will continue to do).
 
I respect people who not only state their opinions, but leverage those opinions. You seem to be one of those.

@bonnie is the prototypical well-informed early stage investor. I respect that too.

My own history has included both short positions and long ones, with a decent amount of highly leveraged positions over the few benighted years when I was enamoured of Black-Scholes (in 1973 it was all the rage and I had access to an IBM 360-195, so I was utterly convinced) and ignored the boundary conditions, so my enthusiasm was short-lived). Luckily for me I quit long before Scholes and Merton. Then I became a consultant to some which narrowly avoided disaster in 1998. (Long Term Capital Management is the reference. he who ignores boundary conditions will lose, sooner or later.

Back to @bonnie. She did an enormous amount of homework before making a highly speculative investment. Here posts here have demonstrated the truth of that statement.

FWIW, since burning myself in the early 1970's I have been very, very careful to know the difference between my beliefs and facts. The most adamant bulls tend to ignore fundamentals. The most serious shorts do that too. Both of those are over-represented among TSLA investors.

A handful of often-ignored facts seem common to both:
1. They tend not to understand how growth rate affects earnings. (the poster child of the moment probably is AMZN);
2. They tend not to understand capital intensity in industrial companies (corollary: large investments always affect P&L negatively while they are happening);
3. They tend not to understand what happens when the inevitable delays end and serious production begins( two of my favourite examples are the Boeing B747 and B787);
4. They tend to ignore the emotional roller coaster that the three first items engender in securities markets;
5. They tend to overvalue opinions of grossly uninformed securities analysts.

So, since the mid-1970's I have invested only in things I think I understand, sort of like an updated Graham/Buffet approach [I hope].
That has mostly provided quite nice returns, but also requires inordinate amounts of time because when I no longer think I was well-informed I do sell.
I no longer leverage any of my investments. (of course one needs a certain amount of financial resources to do that)

Now for TSLA: I have given up trying to explain the investment life cycle when one tries to adopt new technologies. (e.g. Boeing B747 engine failures, B787 battery and diagnostic failures, Tesla products, all of them). Delays, mistakes and redesign abound. Product reliability for early adopters is horrible. Famously, securities analysts predict failure. As a serial early adopter (a few: NSU RO-80, Mazda R-100, Cessna Citation C525 (SN 41), Apple Newton). All of those worked poorly at first. Two of them were bought back by manufacturers, one went broke, the others nearly did. So, how does Tesla fit in?

I bought into TSLA early, but much later than did Bonnie. I flew to the US, rented an early Model S, was convinced the product could be successful, then studied everything I could.
Tesla developed what have become sustainable advantages in my opinion:
1. The cell-level quality control (check out the full transcript to the NTSB hearings on "lithium-ion batteries in transportation: https://www.ntsb.gov/news/events/Pages/2013_Lithium_Batteries_FRM-Presentations.aspx
https://www.ntsb.gov/news/events/Documents/2013_Lithium_Batteries_FRM-Panel3d-Mikolajczak.pdf
Anyone who takes the time to study those documents will understand that Tesla, and only Tesla, figured out how to safely, dependably and practically deeply li-ion batteries in cars. When they presented that Tesla had NEVER had a non-induced thermal runaway I knew they would conquer other engineering feats too. At the time not one li-ion user other than Tesla had such a record. Nobody else tracked and tested every single cell. Not Boeing, US Navy, nor any manufacturer.
2. The Battery Management System, nobody else had anything like it. Relatively cheap too, since it was essentially a Mercedes-Benz auto A/C system.
3. The entire approach to controls and performance built around continuous improvement and OTA updates. They did that ten years ago any nobody yet as really figured out how to replicate it.
4. The insistence on direct distribution;
5. Supercharging and Destination Charging.

Then I examined all the capital they had used to do all that and realised they are the most efficient user of capital in the automotive industry.

So, I bought in at $50 and have been regularly adding since then, even with some shares added at >$360. I'll keep adding.

Volatility comes with all that, especially with Tesla Energy having just begun to make credible deliveries, new factories for China, Model Y, Semi, Roadster and new soon to come larger scale utility/industrial products plus solar tiles. There will be more.

All that is unproven, so people will short the stock for some years. Shorts will continue to make and lose fortunes as they try to evaluate something that no statistical model on earth can evaluate. Why? All such models are stochastic and thus use past history to predict future actions. They are great when "all else remains equal" and all the boundary conditions do not change. TSLA is all about discontinuities. The models will not work with discontinuities.

Studying TSLA financial reports carefully will demonstrate that they will have a fairly easy time raising capital. Among other notable things many of their most valuable assets are not even ascribed value on their balance sheet, and even Gross Margin is understated by a considerable margin. Thoughtful people can recast the P&L on a steady-state basis, and can evaluate the assets based on market values. Those things are not achievable in GAAP, which is not intended to cope with very high industrial growth.

Shorting TSLA is popular, no doubt about that. It is also perilous, be sure about that.

Probably my favorite post on TMC.

As someone who is lukewarm on TSLA, and an opinion that today at this moment, TSLA is worth at a minimum a $40 billion dollar company, I’m curious about your thoughts about valuation. Are you willing, or able, to put a valuation on TSLA now or in some future timeframe? Pretty much impossible to do in my opinion, and is one I believe that shorts may have an argument for.
 
Probably my favorite post on TMC.

As someone who is lukewarm on TSLA, and an opinion that today at this moment, TSLA is worth at a minimum a $40 billion dollar company, I’m curious about your thoughts about valuation. Are you willing, or able, to put a valuation on TSLA now or in some future timeframe? Pretty much impossible to do in my opinion, and is one I believe that shorts may have an argument for.
That is an excellent question. The securities analysts always must ascribe evaluations and they do, often quite weak in logic, but not always. My personal reference dates from a long time ago when I was sent to do an evaluation of a Japanese consumer finance company by my employer. I followed my best MBA/PhD candidate logic for the evaluation. Two years later my boss compared the actual results to my forecast. I recommend tracking your performance on forecasts. It's guaranteed to be a humbling experience. My boss eulogised me for forecasting within 3% of the actual bottom line results! Wow! The only problem is that I was off by >75% on the most important metrics, but in opposing directions, so by complete coincidence I looked outstanding. I've never forgotten that.

So, for Tesla, I forecast my expectation about BEV adoption rates by car class in major car-buying markets. More recently I have forecast utility, residential and corporate energy storage adoption rates. I ignore solar panels totally. Most recently I have added a number of categories of commercial vehicles. Once I do that I assume Tesla will grow at 1/4 the rate of the global market in categories I consider. Even so the growth rates and ten year results beggar the imagination. I will not state specifics.

This is analogous to assessing Apple market share in smartphones, which steadily declines over time while Apple continues to have about 90% of the total worldwide smartphone profits. Working from market share the iPhone X is a complete bust. As share of revenue it is amazing, and share of profits probably similar.

Tesla will resemble Apple in that respect. Their market share will drop but share fo revenue will continue to be very high. The huge missing element for Bears is that the never see the impact of line expansion, when Semi, Roadster, Model Y, pickup and next generation Model S and X will all be elaborations of technologies developed for Model 3. That virtuous development is the basis for logical evaluation.

Sorry I won't give my numbers. I will only say they are almost certain to rise rapidly beginning in early 2019. CAPEX will diminish on a per model basis while rapidly raising overall because the will be spreading much larger development costs over a larger base. Big Hint: watch China.
 
Ok, here’s a good one. I think Wall Street’s patience with Elon is starting to wear thin due to the plethora of missed projections, both financially and operationally. Therefore, a new capital raise is going to be very difficult. The bond holders from August’s issue are getting whacked at the moment.

Mod: Now you're just getting repetitive and trolling for reaction. Post content or nothing. --ggr
 
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Ok, here’s a good one. I think Wall Street’s patience with Elon is starting to wear thin due to the plethora of missed projections, both financially and operationally. Therefore, a new capital raise is going to be very difficult. The bond holders from August’s issue are getting whacked at the moment.

This old tired meme. You act as if these Wall street investors are new to this stuff. They know what they are doing and they have seen dips before. Absolutely nothing has changed from when those bonds were purchased. The patience you speak of that is wearing thin, is the patience of those who are shorting the stock under the FUD spewing impression that it is going to zero while it keeps going up. Wall Street doesnt get emotional and they dont react to FUD. They dont bet, they know what they are investing in. They set a point at which to buy and a point at which to sell and they move on to the next opportunity. They do not give two craps what happens in between. No money is lost until they close their position and they dont sit there and refresh their brokerage account all day.

Its as simple as this. The clock is ticking on shorts. The moment Tesla his 5k/w they have reached the peak of the mountain of pain. After that production hell turns into production "copy and paste, rinse and repeat." In China, in Europe, in Australia and another in the US, just for starters. Dont forget the Y will be based on Model 3 for the most part. Some changes to the 12v system to a 48v system that requires less wiring. There will be some production hell automating the wiring, but they may choose not to do that until the rest of the model Y lines are fully running and quality is where model 3 is today. The nice thing about the "copy/paste" method is that no payments for Capex are required until the line is up and running and because its based on existing processes with minor tweaks, the issues will be resolved before payments are due. Assume the same pack, so that is just "copy/paste" at the GF1 with no changes. The problem is not Capex, its that its taken longer then Elon would have like to start profiting from that investment. That day ends at 5k/w and will not return until they build a full on alien dreadnought factory that is fully automated. The learnings from the Y and the new 48v system will make that transition easier as the last domain to conquer is final assembly and apparently the parts supply conveyors. My guess is they will hire the company that built UPSs conveyors at their super sorts.

Tick/Tock. Buy by all means, keep shorting the bottom. We bulls need more donors.
 
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Fyi mr nice guy short seller is posting clips of this thread on his new twitter account.
 
Ok, here’s a good one. I think Wall Street’s patience with Elon is starting to wear thin due to the plethora of missed projections, both financially and operationally. Therefore, a new capital raise is going to be very difficult. The bond holders from August’s issue are getting whacked at the moment.
Doesn't really matter if Tesla doesn't need a cap raise.

I think we'll see a cap raise once the SP is back over 350, maybe Q4 2018, for Model Y. (Any cap raise will likely be when Tesla decides the SP is high enough to minimize dilution. Not because Tesla needs the money any time soon.)
 
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