Highland top speed reduced…

[gearchruncher]

It has to do with what you keep saying is irrelevant. Stall current caused this fire when the weapon stopped and the motor was still attempting to spin at full power but could not.

It's actually pretty simple and any mediocre engineer could deduce if they have experience with electric motors.

Right, because all that mechanical damage done in battlebots never leads to other shorts or physical damage to a battery. Only a mediocre engineer would be so sure of what happened from a few frames of a bot on fire while knowing absolutley nothing about the power and control architecture of the bot.

You must really think the engineers at places like NHTSA and NTSB are complete idiots, taking months and years sometimes to figure out why a vehicle crashed and people died. I mean, even a medicore engineer could figure something out from just a few details or witness statements, right? All EV fires are stalled rotors, cased closed.

Basically every motor in the world now is a brushless motor. And every brushless motor controler has current control and limits, because managing individual phase currents is the actual way you commutate the motor, and thus stall current is irrelevant as the controller will never deliver full possible current to a stalled rotor.

And even with all of this, you are trying to distract from the original statement that the highest load on a battery is at high speed, yet here we are talking about 0 RPM, despite every Tesla power graph ever showing minimal battery load at 0 RPM, because that's just physics, and you're trying to ad homenim your way out of it.

 

[Sam1]

Right, because all that mechanical damage done in battlebots never leads to other shorts or physical damage to a battery. Only a mediocre engineer would be so sure of what happened from a few frames of a bot on fire while knowing absolutley nothing about the power and control architecture of the bot.

You must really think the engineers at places like NHTSA and NTSB are complete idiots, taking months and years sometimes to figure out why a vehicle crashed and people died. I mean, even a medicore engineer could figure something out from just a few details or witness statements, right? All EV fires are stalled rotors, cased closed.

Basically every motor in the world now is a brushless motor. And every brushless motor controler has current control and limits, because managing individual phase currents is the actual way you commutate the motor, and thus stall current is irrelevant as the controller will never deliver full possible current to a stalled rotor.

And even with all of this, you are trying to distract from the original statement that the highest load on a battery is at high speed, yet here we are talking about 0 RPM, despite every Tesla power graph ever showing minimal battery load at 0 RPM, because that's just physics, and you're trying to ad homenim your way out of it.

Incorrect yet again. I posted that video because I'm involved. I have boxes of burned up motors ranging from 10hp to 50hp. Controllers, and every other supporting part included as they melt coming backwards out of the motor because of being at stall current levels for too long.

Serious question, if you design EVs for a living, why don't you post a couple of the raw logs collected during testing on your most recent build instead of relying on a media released dyno chart?

I'd really be interested to take a peak at them.

 

[gearchruncher]

Incorrect yet again. I posted that video because I'm involved. I have boxes of burned up motors ranging from 10hp to 50hp. Controllers, and every other supporting part included as they melt coming backwards out of the motor because of being at stall current levels for too long.

Any idea why you are not setting current limits in your controllers? Maybe because your goal is to be a battlebot where destruction is the goal at all costs, but this has nothing to do with consumer products? Care to explain why a current limit in a controller wouldn't protect aginst a stalled rotor? Why can a contoller protect against overcurrent when the rotor is spinning, but not when stalled?

Not very cool to say that a "mediocore engineer" could identify what happened from a few frames when you yourself know that the reason you are sure is because you've actually seen the failure method yourself in detail on that specific situation.

Serious question, if you design EVs for a living, why don't you post a couple of the raw logs collected during testing on your most recent build instead of relying on a media released dyno chart?

I don't design Teslas for a living and don't make it a habit to log my car. However, all of my claims are fully backed up by every chart you can find for power vs speed in a Tesla, and I've actually posted them, both Tesla and independently sourced. These graphs obey the commonly understood physics of an electric motor. Meanwhile, you are making extrordinary claims that power goes UP as the car goes above 125 MPH. Do you have even a single datalog showing this?

Here, I'll throw you yet another data point, a Dyno curve from this very site for an M3P:

https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/attachments/2018-tesla-model-3-with-performance-upgrade-vs-dual-motor-pdf.371383/

What trace on that graph tells you that power goes UP as the car goes above 100 MPH?

Another one from MPP:

Apparently you have @mpgxsvcd blocked, but he posts power vs speed data all the time, in threads like this:

Model 3 Highland Performance/Plaid Speculation

Model 3 does more than 429 Kw from the battery. I have seen as much as 448 Kw with a fully optimized battery. I can make the car at 16% SOC perform like the same car at 89% SOC just by changing the battery temperature. Here are two max discharge values at different temperatures and SOC. 365 KW...

teslamotorsclub.com

We all know horsepower isn't maximum at zero RPM, and it isn't maximum at top speed either. The whole goal of an EV is to turn electric power into mechanical power as efficently as possible. Why do you think eletrical power and mechanical power are disconnected, and where does the extra electrical power go at high speeds that it isn't going at low speeds?

 

[Sam1]

Any idea why you are not setting current limits in your controllers? Maybe because your goal is to be a battlebot where destruction is the goal at all costs, but this has nothing to do with consumer products? Care to explain why a current limit in a controller wouldn't protect aginst a stalled rotor? Why can a contoller protect against overcurrent when the rotor is spinning, but not when stalled?

Not very cool to say that a "mediocore engineer" could identify what happened from a few frames when you yourself know that the reason you are sure is because you've actually seen the failure method yourself in detail on that specific situation.


I don't design Teslas for a living and don't make it a habit to log my car. However, all of my claims are fully backed up by every chart you can find for power vs speed in a Tesla, and I've actually posted them, both Tesla and independently sourced. These graphs obey the commonly understood physics of an electric motor. Meanwhile, you are making extrordinary claims that power goes UP as the car goes above 125 MPH. Do you have even a single datalog showing this?

Here, I'll throw you yet another data point, a Dyno curve from this very site for an M3P:

https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/attachments/2018-tesla-model-3-with-performance-upgrade-vs-dual-motor-pdf.371383/

What trace on that graph tells you that power goes UP as the car goes above 100 MPH?

Another one from MPP:
View attachment 1014087

Apparently you have @mpgxsvcd blocked, but he posts power vs speed data all the time, in threads like this:

Model 3 Highland Performance/Plaid Speculation

Model 3 does more than 429 Kw from the battery. I have seen as much as 448 Kw with a fully optimized battery. I can make the car at 16% SOC perform like the same car at 89% SOC just by changing the battery temperature. Here are two max discharge values at different temperatures and SOC. 365 KW...

teslamotorsclub.com

We all know horsepower isn't maximum at zero RPM, and it isn't maximum at top speed either. The whole goal of an EV is to turn electric power into mechanical power as efficently as possible. Why do you think eletrical power and mechanical power are disconnected, and where does the extra electrical power go at high speeds that it isn't going at low speeds?

Few things, then I'm bailing on this one

Thanks for finally agreeing with me that controllers manipulate power draw by suggesting that we use the controller to limit stall current on an electric motor, since that is the point at which almost every electric motor on the planet draws the most current and causes the most damage when at that level for longer periods of time. Remember when launch mode first came out in a Tesla, some of them had faster 60 foot times than plaids do now, and there was a warning that came up on the screen warning that putting it in launch mode too often may damage the motors? Stall current limits are why Tesla warned owners about potential damage.

Throughout this conversation, you have consistently conflated HP output with my statements on power draw. Not sure if you were so enthusiastic about arguing that you ignored the wording I used, or if it was a simple mistake on your part. Also, nowhere in this entire conversation have I said that max HP is at 0 rpm. But you seem hyper-fixated on making that statement. If that is to infer that HP output and current draw mirror each other across the entire plot, that is incorrect because there's no constant state of torque with the motor across the RPM plot.

Lastly, I find it difficult to believe that an individual claiming to be an engineer that builds a system of any sort that is capable of producing data, does not possess data logs of any sort on those systems they build.

 

[gearchruncher]

Lastly, I find it difficult to believe that an individual claiming to be an engineer that builds a system of any sort that is capable of producing data, does not possess data logs of any sort on those systems they build.

Dude, I am not posting the private intellectual property of the company I work for. You should question someone that does post that! In what way would it relate at all to the discussion here anyway? Not all electric vehicles are cars FYI, but batteries are batteries and motors are motors.

Throughout this conversation, you have consistently conflated HP output with my statements on power draw.

Oh, you are so, so, so close. I have not "conflated" them- they are LITERALLY the same thing, minus efficiency losses in the converter and motor. I've said this over and over and over. You're the one that can't understand the conservation of energy and the fact they HAVE to be the same and ratiometric in any rational, physics obeying EV.

If that is to infer that HP output and current draw mirror each other across the entire plot, that is incorrect because there's no constant state of torque with the motor across the RPM plot.

One more time. Power and current are not the same without factoring in RPM. Anytime you mention only current, you're not talking about power in any way, shape, or form. Anytime you mention power draw from a battery and then current in a motor, and there is a controller between the two, you are discussing two disconnected things. Of course HP output and current don't mirror one another, but that's purely because you don't know what RPM you are at when mentioning current, not because torque is changing as RPM changes.

I continue to notice that you have no defense for the idea that batteries are under their peak loads at higher vehicle speeds, and want to talk about current at zero RPM or why battlebots catch on fire.

 

[mpgxsvcd]

Lastly, I find it difficult to believe that an individual claiming to be an engineer that builds a system of any sort that is capable of producing data, does not possess data logs of any sort on those systems they build.

I have all of the logs you could ever want with a 2022 Model 3 Performance. I have about twenty 1/4 mile passes logged from 0 mph to as much as 132 mph. They all show total battery power increasing from 0 mph till 55 mph where it then starts decreasing till about 120 mph where it stays essentially level.

Here is a graph of my highest and lowest horsepower outputs. I also included a graph below that showing front and rear Power, Volts, and amps for a 1/4 mile+ pass up to over 130 mph.

 

[mpgxsvcd]

I continue to notice that you have no defense for the idea that batteries are under their peak loads at higher vehicle speeds, and want to talk about current at zero RPM or why battlebots catch on fire.

His whole thing is that he just ignores any evidence someone presents to contradict his claims. It is impossible to argue with someone who just shuts his eyes and ears to anything you say.

 

[ashegam]

I've kept my eyes and ears wide open and still have no idea WTH you guys talking about

All I want is just my refreshed M3P NOW!!

 

[mpgxsvcd]

I've kept my eyes and ears wide open and still have no idea WTH you guys talking about

All I want is just my refreshed M3P NOW!!

Patience. It will be worth the wait.

 

[12B4A]

The 2024 Tesla Model 3 Highland comes with Michelin e-Primacy tires for 18-inch Photon Wheels and Hankook tires for 19-inch Nova Wheels. The Michelin e-Primacy tires have 235/45R18 98V specs, while the Hankook tires have 235/40R19 96W specifications.

H = 130mph
V = 149mph
W = 168mph

Nearly every article states that Tesla told them the top speed reduction was due to the tires. Since Tesla does a little stretch to the tires, that seems like it would derate the speed a bit due to the extra heat from larger contact patch. However, I don't think it warrants that much of a derating and that also doesn't explain why previous models didn't have their top speed reduced even though the same stretch was used with similarly rate tires.
There was a mention that in Europe, H rated tires were used but I can't find anything to support that.

The one differing reason I found was this: Tesla Bjorn reveals Model 3 Highland's hidden features and deeper insights from the test drive day - Tesla Oracle

What Bjorn analyzed from the discussion with a Tesla engineer is that the automaker opted for comfort in this iteration of the Model 3 compact luxury sedan. Tesla did not prioritize speed with the non-performance models this time.

I can't seem to find it but I seem to recall way back in September that suspension was cited for the top speed change and this quote aligns with that, if true. Perhaps the suspension tweaks made it more comfortable at lower speeds and less stable above 125mph.

 

[terranx]

I have all of the logs you could ever want with a 2022 Model 3 Performance. I have about twenty 1/4 mile passes logged from 0 mph to as much as 132 mph. They all show total battery power increasing from 0 mph till 55 mph where it then starts decreasing till about 120 mph where it stays essentially level.

Here is a graph of my highest and lowest horsepower outputs. I also included a graph below that showing front and rear Power, Volts, and amps for a 1/4 mile+ pass up to over 130 mph.

View attachment 1014305View attachment 1014304

What setup did you use to capture these? Trying to capture similar data for an MXLR and MSP, but I see no way of logging data in SMT.

 

[mpgxsvcd]

What setup did you use to capture these? Trying to capture similar data for an MXLR and MSP, but I see no way of logging data in SMT.

Those were manually generated from a video screen capture of the S3XY buttons. However, now I also have the Teslogic display which generates the data for me automatically in the app and then emails it to me. It is so wonderful being able to capture all of this data right at the track on my phone.

 

[terranx]

Hmm, that I can probably do..

I do have more generic can bus interfaces where I could probably capture the raw data with a laptop or sbc but there doesn't seem to much documentation with regards to which messages hold which data.

 

[terranx]

Those were manually generated from a video screen capture of the S3XY buttons. However, now I also have the Teslogic display which generates the data for me automatically in the app and then emails it to me. It is so wonderful being able to capture all of this data right at the track on my phone.

So if you're interested, this was about what I was able to get in the X LR (which should be similar to S LR I imagine). Only was able to hit 100 mph, but should still be useful. SoC was ~78%

Will try to get a higher speed run and a sample from my Plaid at some other point

And an approximate power vs RPM graph below

 

[mpgxsvcd]

So if you're interested, this was about what I was able to get in the X LR (which should be similar to S LR I imagine). Only was able to hit 100 mph, but should still be useful. SoC was ~78%

View attachment 1020301

View attachment 1020302

Will try to get a higher speed run and a sample from my Plaid at some other point

And an approximate power vs RPM graph below

View attachment 1020308

Interesting data.

 

[MOE J]

Wonder what FSD at 150 mph would be like

 

[Sam1]

Wonder what FSD at 150 mph would be like

If you can imagine it regularly trying to kill you at 50 mph, speed that up by a factor of 3.

 

[terranx]

If you can imagine it regularly trying to kill you at 50 mph, speed that up by a factor of 3.

I’d argue it’s probably exponential. So let’s say 9

 

[Apprunner]

In the Q&A, the reduction in top speed was explained. It’s tires. Around 6min mark

 

[Bouba]

In the Q&A, the reduction in top speed was explained. It’s tires. Around 6min mark

That was very interesting, thank you for posting......so if you change the tires......can you get the speed back