TMC is an independent, primarily volunteer organization that relies on ad revenue to cover its operating costs. Please consider whitelisting TMC on your ad blocker and becoming a Supporting Member. For more info: Support TMC

Holding shares in a private Tesla outside the US

Discussion in 'TSLA Investor Discussions' started by hobbes, Aug 8, 2018.

  1. hobbes

    hobbes Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2013
    Messages:
    1,746
    Location:
    Germany
    Starting this as a spin-off from the Market Action thread, where quite a few investors from non-US countries have been wondering what to do to be able to keep investing in Tesla after it possibly goes private.

    Ideas:
    • transfer shares to a US based brogerage (Schwab, Interactive Brokers etc).
    • @neorden said:
    If people get feedback from their brokerages on what will happen to their shares, please post it here!
     
    • Like x 5
    • Informative x 1
  2. W84M3

    W84M3 Member

    Joined:
    Apr 12, 2016
    Messages:
    222
    Location:
    Belgium
    Thanks for this thread, Hobbes. Any idea how we can transfer shares? Selling at current broker & buying at new US-based broker?
     
  3. cricketman

    cricketman Member

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2018
    Messages:
    21
    Location:
    Spain
    This is my situation too. I hold my shares via retail banks in Spain. I would want to transfer most if not all my shares to the private company (depending on what happens during a potential short squeeze in the interim). $420 per share is not attractive to me at all. $500 is fair value now in my opinion, and I was planning to start selling shares gradually between $1,000 and $3,000
     
    • Like x 2
  4. EVMeister

    EVMeister Member

    Joined:
    Apr 8, 2018
    Messages:
    221
    Location:
    England
    I'm hoping to get some clarity on this. I currently hold my shares with a broker in the UK in an ISA (tax free). I wouldn't be against the idea of transferring them over to a US brokerage, even if I have to pay some tax when I withdraw them. Because I truly believe that $420 is peanuts for these shares, as somebody prepared to stay invested for 5+ years. No deal. :)
     
    • Like x 4
  5. elliott82

    elliott82 Member

    Joined:
    Oct 11, 2012
    Messages:
    53
    Location:
    Munich
    I hold shares at german comdirect. Am also planning on going private if at all possible with my account. Don’t want that 25% tax hit if I have to sell them first. I asked my bank, will post here when I get an answer.
     
    • Informative x 2
    • Like x 1
  6. avoigt

    avoigt Active Member

    Joined:
    Sep 5, 2017
    Messages:
    1,301
    Location:
    Germany
    #6 avoigt, Aug 8, 2018
    Last edited: Aug 8, 2018
    @hobbes, first of all many thanks for open this thread. That makes a lot of sense and is helpful trying to understand with the limited information we have what options we have. I was thinking doing the same or starting private messages to shed more light on the situation.

    My thoughts:

    As of today we know not very much really so its difficult to understand if we as international stock owners are facing a situation that requires us to sell or not

    Actually I did read from various people that they are sure we have to go out but they did not give any explanation. So if someone can give an explanation why its believes that would be helpful

    Elon wants to make the company private. That we know for sure now. To do that he wants to protect all shareholders who supported him in his mission and force shorts out. Long term shareholders are people he is very graceful for and he mentioned many times that he want to protect them and appreciate their support. So, in short I do believe he will do his best to structure the situation in a way to keep us in if we want to.

    In fact Elons attempt to go private depends on all Shareholders voting result. This does not look like a done deal as there are many people that for various reasons like Tesla to stay public. So, the outcome of that vote is unclear to me and I do have doubts that the $420 offer will be enough to achieve that. In my view its likely that they have to go much higher to get approval.

    Given that Elon needs the Shareholder approval to go private he needs to win national and international shareholders to vote for privatization. What I am trying to say is that if the deal structure would mean international shareholders are forced out they will likely vote against privatization unless they have other motivation to cash out. So there is an incentive for him to do his best to keep us in.

    What I am looking for in this tread is hard fact information why international shareholders will be forced to go out. Does anybody has solid information?

    From what I read Elon wants to give shareholders the option either to sell at $420 or to get a private share. In the latter why do people believe just because we are located in e.g. Europe maybe with a European bank that other rules apply to us in going private?

    I am a long term shareholder and want to stay with Tesla the next 5-15 years if not longer. I like the mission, the products, the company and I like kicking the incumbent auto industry in the butt for what they did to the environment and the consumer in the last decades. Besdie that I believe Tesla to grow to one of the largest companies on earth. Therefore it would be a pleasure to be a shareholder in the future be it public or private.
     
    • Like x 1
  7. heltok

    heltok Member

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2014
    Messages:
    51
    Location:
    Sweden
    Swede here wondering the same. I have TSLA in both a KF and in an ISK. Not sure what is gonna happen to these, the KF seems tricky... Considering going on a holiday to America and opening an account, any suggestion for a nice secure bank with reasonable fees?

    Here is a response from Avanza, the biggest broker in Sweden:
    TeslaClubSweden.se • Visa tråd - Aktien TSLA
     
    • Informative x 1
  8. avoigt

    avoigt Active Member

    Joined:
    Sep 5, 2017
    Messages:
    1,301
    Location:
    Germany
    Can't read Swedish I am afraid. Can you translate the important parts?
     
  9. heltok

    heltok Member

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2014
    Messages:
    51
    Location:
    Sweden
    They are saying that they have many customers owning TSLA and are aware of the situation but will not speculate on what it means for Swedish investors until more concrete details are released about how Tesla will go private.
     
  10. SwTslaGrl

    SwTslaGrl Member

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2016
    Messages:
    514
    Location:
    Sweden
    EU Tesla employees perhaps needs a private equity fund set up in the EU? Could EU TSLA shareholders also convert to this?
     
    • Like x 10
  11. Lycanthrope

    Lycanthrope Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2013
    Messages:
    2,236
    Location:
    Brussels
    Thanks Hobbes, I was also going to start a thread, glad you've done it first :)

    Full disclosure, I'm holding 501 common shares in a personal trading account with www.keytrade.be - I have emailed them to see if they already have any idea whether they will support the new situation. If not then I'll be looking for another broker that will.

    I also have 17 shares in my company trading account, these I'll just sell or convert to $420 when the time comes.

    Obviously when I get a reply I'll post it here - also pinning this post on browser... :)

    Cheers
     
    • Informative x 1
  12. mrdoubleb

    mrdoubleb Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2013
    Messages:
    1,696
    Location:
    Budapest, Hungary
    Thanks @hobbes for starting this.I am also contacting my brokerage, but i have a feeling i`ll get a "we don`t know yet" at best, and a hard no at worst. For me the worst option is having to sell at 420. Then, on top of losing out on future TSLA growth over the next 5-10 years I was hoping for, I`ll have 2 options:
    1. cash out and pay taxes on my tax free accounts as those would only become tax free starting 2021,22,23 and 24.
    2. try to find another company i trust enough to keep my money in for the next 3-5 years so i can stay in those accounts until they become tax free.
    I don`t really like either of those options.
     
    • Like x 1
  13. SebastianR

    SebastianR Member

    Joined:
    Feb 8, 2013
    Messages:
    778
    Location:
    Denmark
    #13 SebastianR, Aug 8, 2018
    Last edited: Aug 8, 2018
    Hi all,

    So my bank doesn't know anything but knows that they are getting a lot of calls on the matter... My bank advisor does not think Tesla will actually go private (to be honest, I think do know much more about the situation than he does, so don't take this as indication but more as an explanation why we don't trade above 420 yet...). And he assured me that I will not have any voting rights (just like I had no way to vote in the Solar City merger either...)

    He believes (as much as he doesn't know anything) that there will be a way to stay with the company as long as you own the shares. He seemed to not believe in a forced payout. But then again, I don't think he knows too much of the whole thing...

    I tried to press him on if a change from stock to special fund would be a taxable event and he said (- yes you guessed it...) "I don't know, I really don't know". I asked if there is any precedence and - he didn't know...

    So there is that - not much help as of now :(
     
    • Like x 3
  14. Johan

    Johan Funds for M3 secured. Contingent on wife aproval.

    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2012
    Messages:
    7,099
    Location:
    Drammen, Norway
    I haven't heard back from my bank/broker in Norway yet (DNB Markets). But I do have one personal experience that may be relevant: A couple of years back I bought shares in a privately held LLC in the US (Lawrenceville Plasma Physics). They had a public offering at the time, for US citizens you had to be an "accredited investor" meaning basically you had to show that you had a certain amount of wealth (I think a disposable income of $1 million or something) in order to be eligable as a buyer. But for foreigners no such criteria existed. So what I did was basically e-mailed back and forth with their CFO, was sent a contract which I borught to a Notary Publicus after I had signed, transferred money to their account and returned the signed contract. After a week I recieved a stock certicate showing the number of stock and class of stock that I now own. I keep this paper in a safe and have made digital copies. My stock broker here in Norway know nothing of my ownership of these shares and frankly I don't know the specifics of how/where my ownership of these shares is kept record of in the United States. I assume the company has a formal record, but I don't know if the US authorities or some external party also has a record?

    My understanding is that Elon wants so set up some kind of fund to manage private ownership, which would also cater to retail investors. I think all of this will be worked out for us non-US stock holders.

    My big worry is that if TSLA is taken private and I decide I want to keep holding the stock privately that the conversion from TSLA [public stock on NASDAQ] in to TSLA [share of privately held company] will be treated by my local tax authority as me selling my stock and/or trading one stock for another stock (which is considered tax-wise a sale) thus incurring a very hefty tax bill.
     
    • Informative x 5
    • Like x 1
    • Love x 1
  15. jeewee3000

    jeewee3000 Member

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2015
    Messages:
    327
    Location:
    Belgium
    Hi, thanks for starting this thread.

    I am holding shares with Binck Bank in Belgium and will contact them in the next couple of days when some more info about the (planned) deal leaks out.

    I'll keep you guys posted.

    Also, I share @mrdoubleb 's worries that having to sell at 420 is way to soon for me, and I doubt I'll find another company with so much upside. (Amazon is my best bet currently)
     
  16. SPadival

    SPadival Member

    Joined:
    May 7, 2016
    Messages:
    437
    Location:
    Melbourne, Australia
    Best way to address this is to ask SpaceX employees based outside US on what is the current structure for them.
     
    • Like x 1
  17. T3SLA3

    T3SLA3 Member

    Joined:
    May 23, 2016
    Messages:
    11
    Location:
    Christchurch, New Zealand
    When I transferred to Halifax, I asked them to pull my TSLA shares from my local share broker, Forsyth Barr.
    There was a little bit of paperwork, but it was done for free.
    Halifax use Interactive Brokers, so I trade my shares using Trader Workstation ($25 NZD per transaction).

    I am hoping there is a similar free TSLA share transfer to the private investment house.
    I assume I would then receive a certificate of ownership either online or paper / PDF.
     
    • Helpful x 1
    • Informative x 1
  18. schonelucht

    schonelucht Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2014
    Messages:
    4,020
    Location:
    Nederland
    Tried to reach out to my bank but after being on hold for 15 minutes I juist gave up. Supposedly the answer is going to be : "we don't know yet"
     
  19. NicoV

    NicoV Member

    Joined:
    Jan 10, 2016
    Messages:
    889
    Location:
    Zulte, Belgium
    As you may remember, I am also a keytrade customer. Will mail them too. I want too keep my Tesla shares when they go private, I assume you also want that. Maybe two customers inquiring on the same day may signal that they have to put some effort in there.
    I’ve had previous experiences with them with a european company that issued rights for a capital increase and they handled everything by mail (for exercising my rights), so I’m hopefull they will be able to deal with this situation.
     
    • Like x 2
  20. avoigt

    avoigt Active Member

    Joined:
    Sep 5, 2017
    Messages:
    1,301
    Location:
    Germany
    #20 avoigt, Aug 8, 2018
    Last edited: Aug 8, 2018
    I just talked to my Bank its Cortal Consors/ BNP Paribas. They said:

    • A typical situation is that the public shares are transformed into private shares located at a US bank like Morgan Stanley who administrate and manage the affair for all stockholders.
    • There is no barrier for international shareholders to transfer their shares unless the contract has terms to force them out
    • Having the Bank or Account and/or Depot in Europe does not make a difference and you should be able to participate as US investors do
    • Liquidity is only available at certain dates. As we know that will be with Tesla every 6 months
    • About taxes: here in Germany the tax authorities have asked for payment of Abgeltungsteuer (25%) before and may do it in our case as well. They could and may consider this move as a buy and sell action.
      • There was a case lately where Google was forcing stockholders to switch their shares (different type) too where the stockholders in Germany opened a court case and won against the tax authorities. With the new regulation of a class action (Sammelklage) in Germany such a case could be a valid option to consider. The truth is that our shares are only transferred into private shares like a different type whereby there is no sell or buy nor any income or a speculative realized win.
    I have some experience with this as I did own 50000 options at my former company and decided to buy the stocks whereby I was forced to pay income Tax although I did not get any income. At that time I considered this already as unfair and against the law but it was a not too high amount and decided not to open a legal case. I do not know if I ever will be able to sell them despite all the taxes I paid. Its a private company as well.
     
    • Informative x 18
    • Like x 2
    • Love x 1

Share This Page

  • About Us

    Formed in 2006, Tesla Motors Club (TMC) was the first independent online Tesla community. Today it remains the largest and most dynamic community of Tesla enthusiasts. Learn more.
  • Do you value your experience at TMC? Consider becoming a Supporting Member of Tesla Motors Club. As a thank you for your contribution, you'll get nearly no ads in the Community and Groups sections. Additional perks are available depending on the level of contribution. Please visit the Account Upgrades page for more details.


    SUPPORT TMC