How are Europeans liking Model 3?

[TeeEmCee]

I just read that article (translated) and at the end in addition to them complaining about the glove box opening procedure they also mention that the exterior door handles “endanger” fingernails. Huh? That’s the very first time I’ve ever heard of such a complaint. Perhaps the reviewer needs a manicure

I think a lot of german expressions and phrases, when translated into English, sound more pompous than they’re supposed to.

I find that communication in general is more formal than what we’re used to in the US and therefore everyday expressions can strike those of us on the left side of the pond as a bit over the top. For example, one’s title is a mandatory field when booking with Lufthansa ... which is why every time I book with them, I pick the most pompous one they have available, “Dr Prof ... whatever”.

 

[voip-ninja]

The really weird thing is I haven't seen any German articles in which the fuel savings aspect has really been discussed. I don't know how much electricity costs in Germany but I know that fuel is rather expensive due to all of the taxes.

I would think that if electricity prices are 'reasonable' that the annual fuel savings with an EV would be enormous.

 

[MXWing]

I'll post my experiences after I take delivery.

I forgot one item, for the price of the m3 (we can only order LR AWD and performance), I think most people here would expect an automated trunk open/close.

Power lift gate is the ‘Model S’ option.

I angered a lot of people when I asked who in their right mind would get a base Model S 75D when the Model 3 AWD/performance destroys it in almost every area. This was back in mid 2018.

As time goes on, the heavily disagreed statement proved more and more true. That version of the S is no longer for sale and the Model 3 has v3 supercharging. Even v2 supercharger is improved. Sentry mode, MCU2, etc.

S is on its final legs. Power lift gate is the last carrot left to Tesla to sell the S in its current form.

The X is a marvel when it comes to doors. You never have to touch the handles going in or out.

You want to close both front doors - step on the brakes. It’s damn cool.

Not double the Model 3 AWD price cool though.

Yes - I understand the Model X can do things the 3 cannot. Speaking strictly overall value vs dollar spent.

 

[Arpe]

The really weird thing is I haven't seen any German articles in which the fuel savings aspect has really been discussed. I don't know how much electricity costs in Germany but I know that fuel is rather expensive due to all of the taxes.

I would think that if electricity prices are 'reasonable' that the annual fuel savings with an EV would be enormous.

Seems like Germany pay about the same for electricity as here in Denmark, about 0,3 €/kWh - about 55% in taxes/fees - (What German households pay for power), and gas prices are about 1,54 €/L of petrol and 1,3 €/L of diesel.

To be equivalent to an EV with 155 Wh/km (250 Wh/mile),
The petrol vehicle will have to do 28,1 km/L (66 mpg)
and a diesel vehicle will have to do 23,9 km/L (56 mpg)

EVs are then, most places in Europe, about the same cost to fuel as a diesel vehicle but petrol doesn't stand a change. (Before maintenance which are typically higher for diesel vehicle these days).

With a petrol vehicle which does 15 km/L (35 mpg) and 25.000 km (15.500 miles) each year I will save 1.200 €.
As long as the diesel vehicle averages more than 23,9 km/L (56 mpg) it will be cheaper in fuel than this EV at 250 Wh/mile.

Edit: we have to remember that diesel vehicles in Europe are heavily subsidized

 

[AustinPowers]

I'll simply copy what I've posted in a different thread to offer my two cents:

I'm German, so obviously I have to chime in and add some much needed negativity to this thread

No, but seriously, I am happy you had such a pleasant experience. Mine wasn't as pleasant, not by a wide margin.

But like many have said before, the memory of all these unpleasant experiences before (and even during and after) delivery quickly fade away once you actually own the car and drive it on a daily basis.

Yes, perfectionists have to be aware that this is no Audi, BMW or Mercedes (or even VW). Especially the quality of the paint is so bad in parts it beggars belief. My PPF installer only shook his head at the shoddy overall quality of the paint job, and I quite agree. Luckily, most of the worst spots are on the door sills and similar areas you rarely see, but still, some bad spots of the paint job on more visible areas are so obvious it is hard to not see and not get a bit miffed about. Compared to our e-Golf it's just mind-boggling how Tesla can be so bad at painting cars properly.

Otoh, panel gaps and general interior build quality on mine is much better than what I had feared, so not many complaints there. Some details need fixing (which I never had on any car before, but that's Tesla for you), and that quite a few pieces of headliner had dirt marks was also not what I would have expected on a brand new, 70K Euro car, but a bit of treatment with my miracle solution (shaving cream (!), as recommended by a detailer) did the job of cleaning it all up perfectly.

On the software side of things there are several glitches and especially the connection between the app and the car is sketchy, the auto-open of the doors only works about half of the time, and the LTE connection often takes very long to get up and running when I start driving, but all this might be able to get better via software updates. Same with the Homelink function, which I can't get to work for the life if me, even though the manual of my garage door opener clearly states that it is compatible with the HL hardware and software version installed in the Model 3 according to Tesla. Again, someday, perhaps.

Overall, I am very happy with my Model 3 up to now. I wouldn't say it's the best car that I've ever owned, but it's very close.

And to clarify about the paint defects: many areas of the body are littered with small dimples which look like dust was on the body and preserved under the coats of paint. I have never seen anything remotely like this on any other car, be it a cheap Dacia or a top of the line Ferrari.
The impression my PPF installer got was that the Tesla paint booths are inadequately shielded against dust/dirt ect. getting in.

 

[AustinPowers]

The really weird thing is I haven't seen any German articles in which the fuel savings aspect has really been discussed. I don't know how much electricity costs in Germany but I know that fuel is rather expensive due to all of the taxes.

I would think that if electricity prices are 'reasonable' that the annual fuel savings with an EV would be enormous.

Electricity is very expensive here as well, so the savings - if you pay the national average - are far smaller than what you might think. That's probably why it isn't mentioned very often.

 

[AustinPowers]

still don't get why the glovebox is such a hardship. It's 2 taps on the screen that takes 1 second to perform. Anyhow, the glovebox issue was mentioned a lot in a bunch of first reviews here in the US too, but rarely have I heard actual owners complain about it.

It's certainly no hardship imho, but it is a nuisance and one example where one simple button could have been elegantly integrated into the design but Tesla went with "let's show how modern we are". With some things, less buttons is better. With some, like the glovebox opening, less buttons is worse.
Also, the rain sensing wiper software in its current iteration is crap. Period. I drove through several patches of rain in the last few days, and at no point in time did the autosensing wipers clean the windshield in a way something called "autosensing" is supposed to. I constantly had to use the manual wipe button on the steering column stalk in order to get adequate visibility. I sincerely hope this gets improved in future software updates, because in its current state it as quite the safety hazard, and another example where wiper speed adjustment via steering column stalk would have been preferable to fiddling with the settings on the screen while driving. All cars with autosensing wipers I had driven previously worked much better in that regard.

By the way, @voip-ninja: I like your Model 3 configuration!

 

[Candleflame]

I think a lot of german expressions and phrases, when translated into English, sound more pompous than they’re supposed to.

I find that communication in general is more formal than what we’re used to in the US and therefore everyday expressions can strike those of us on the left side of the pond as a bit over the top. For example, one’s title is a mandatory field when booking with Lufthansa ... which is why every time I book with them, I pick the most pompous one they have available, “Dr Prof ... whatever”.

Normally in german it doesn't matter that much how you write/say something (compared to english). In this case however it does matter. They are giving a long list of things the Model 3 doesn't do so well and give a fairly bizarre description. Literally translated:

Tesla does everything differently and a lot of it is done well. But not every gimmick is a win. The flush(ed) door handles are endangering finger nails. The keycard is very fragile - connoisseurs are warning that it might break in your pocket. That you can only open the frunk or the glovebox via the touchscreen is annoying (you). In the end not everything is bad what has been developed in 100 years of automotive engineering.

A proper translation into english (which would convey what the writer is trying to say) would look more like this.

There is a reason why certain features have been present in cars in exactly the same way for 100 years. Tesla has to be different and does so quite well even though not every feature has been thought out well: The flush doorhandles can be difficult to use with one hand. The keycard is very flimsy and we have had reports that it can break if carried in the backpocket. Only being able to open the glovebox and frunk via the touchscreen can be cumbersome as well.

Note that the last statement is all about that Tesla is trying to do things different for the sake of being different but in a proper translation it should be moved to the beginning of the paragraph not in the end. It is one of the reasons why german jokes aren't funny to foreigners because the structure of sentences is sort of the other way round. The article argues that you don't have to reinvent the wheel everytime which is why certain features have been standard on cars for 100 years. The reasons they give to support their argument are sort of far fetched which is common german when giving a list. (i.e. "endangering" finger"nails", a tesla "connoisseur" warning about cards "breaking", it causing "physical agitation/anger" to open the glovebox. This gets rounded off with a very dry statement that you dont need to be different for the sake of being different. An english journalist just wouldn't write it in that way but it sounds good in german.

 

[voip-ninja]

It's certainly no hardship imho, but it is a nuisance and one example where one simple button could have been elegantly integrated into the design but Tesla went with "let's show how modern we are". With some things, less buttons is better. With some, like the glovebox opening, less buttons is worse.
Also, the rain sensing wiper software in its current iteration is crap. Period. I drove through several patches of rain in the last few days, and at no point in time did the autosensing wipers clean the windshield in a way something called "autosensing" is supposed to. I constantly had to use the manual wipe button on the steering column stalk in order to get adequate visibility. I sincerely hope this gets improved in future software updates, because in its current state it as quite the safety hazard, and another example where wiper speed adjustment via steering column stalk would have been preferable to fiddling with the settings on the screen while driving. All cars with autosensing wipers I had driven previously worked much better in that regard.

By the way, @voip-ninja: I like your Model 3 configuration!

What software version is your car running?

The auto-sensing wipers were dramatically improved in the 5.15 release for the North American market, they actually do a tolerable job now where-as before I could not drive with them without having to manually intervene.

Even though neither you or I have the Performance version of the car, the dual motor variant still has mind-blowing performance... especially where I live which is about 1850 meters above sea level. Nothing more fun than toasting a low spec $100,000 Porsche with my puny electric car.

 

[AustinPowers]

What software version is your car running?

The auto-sensing wipers were dramatically improved in the 5.15 release for the North American market, they actually do a tolerable job now where-as before I could not drive with them without having to manually intervene.

Since yesterday I am on 2019.8.3
And no, it still doesn't work well at all. Like I said, I had to constantly use the manual wipe because the autosensor simply would take ages to react to the water (and there was plenty of it, believe me).

Even though neither you or I have the Performance version of the car, the dual motor variant still has mind-blowing performance...

Absolutely.
Drove our daughters (6 and 11) to their music class two days ago and gave the pedal a good push after exiting a roundabout (far from flooring it though). The acceleration was so immense that our older one shouted "Dad, don't do that!", while the younger one clearly loved it and always begged me to do it again (I am sure partly because she liked the idea of her older sister being uncomfortable with it).

 

[voip-ninja]

Since yesterday I am on 2019.8.3
And no, it still doesn't work well at all. Like I said, I had to constantly use the manual wipe because the autosensor simply would take ages to react to the water (and there was plenty of it, believe me).

You don't have the wiper fix, you're about a week behind for it, so I imagine you will get it in time for spring rainstorms in another month or so.

It definitely makes a difference.

Absolutely.
Drove our daughters (6 and 11) to their music class two days ago and gave the pedal a good push after exiting a roundabout (far from flooring it though). The acceleration was so immense that our older one shouted "Dad, don't do that!", while the younger one clearly loved it and always begged me to do it again (I am sure partly because she liked the idea of her older sister being uncomfortable with it).

Ahhh... sibling rivalry!

My second child doesn't arrive for another seven weeks, but my son has already switched between "do that again" to "too fast dad!!".

 

[banned-66611]

Waiting for RHD availability and hoping they fix the wipers and leaky boot by then. Presumably the touch screen will be mirrored too, with the speedo etc. on the right for us.

 

[voip-ninja]

Waiting for RHD availability and hoping they fix the wipers and leaky boot by then. Presumably the touch screen will be mirrored too, with the speedo etc. on the right for us.

The only reason that the trunk leaks is you either didn't close it all the way or you have the very high expectation that you can open it with water on it without water drizzling into the inside of the compartment.

I don't see Tesla revising the rain guttering soon to address this as there are probably some mechanical limitations.

 

[TeeEmCee]

I'll simply copy what I've posted in a different thread to offer my two cents:

I'm German, so obviously I have to chime in and add some much needed negativity to this thread

No, but seriously, I am happy you had such a pleasant experience. Mine wasn't as pleasant, not by a wide margin.

But like many have said before, the memory of all these unpleasant experiences before (and even during and after) delivery quickly fade away once you actually own the car and drive it on a daily basis.

Yes, perfectionists have to be aware that this is no Audi, BMW or Mercedes (or even VW). Especially the quality of the paint is so bad in parts it beggars belief. My PPF installer only shook his head at the shoddy overall quality of the paint job, and I quite agree. Luckily, most of the worst spots are on the door sills and similar areas you rarely see, but still, some bad spots of the paint job on more visible areas are so obvious it is hard to not see and not get a bit miffed about. Compared to our e-Golf it's just mind-boggling how Tesla can be so bad at painting cars properly.

Otoh, panel gaps and general interior build quality on mine is much better than what I had feared, so not many complaints there. Some details need fixing (which I never had on any car before, but that's Tesla for you), and that quite a few pieces of headliner had dirt marks was also not what I would have expected on a brand new, 70K Euro car, but a bit of treatment with my miracle solution (shaving cream (!), as recommended by a detailer) did the job of cleaning it all up perfectly.

On the software side of things there are several glitches and especially the connection between the app and the car is sketchy, the auto-open of the doors only works about half of the time, and the LTE connection often takes very long to get up and running when I start driving, but all this might be able to get better via software updates. Same with the Homelink function, which I can't get to work for the life if me, even though the manual of my garage door opener clearly states that it is compatible with the HL hardware and software version installed in the Model 3 according to Tesla. Again, someday, perhaps.

Overall, I am very happy with my Model 3 up to now. I wouldn't say it's the best car that I've ever owned, but it's very close.

And to clarify about the paint defects: many areas of the body are littered with small dimples which look like dust was on the body and preserved under the coats of paint. I have never seen anything remotely like this on any other car, be it a cheap Dacia or a top of the line Ferrari.
The impression my PPF installer got was that the Tesla paint booths are inadequately shielded against dust/dirt ect. getting in.

As if further proof were needed that cars must be German, I shall point out the contrast between ^^this Frankfurt brother’s language and phrasing skills as compared to the various American’s posting here, talking about Tesla’s and loosing confidence in there breaks.

 

[voip-ninja]

As if further proof were needed that cars must be German, I shall point out the contrast between ^^this Frankfurt brother’s language and phrasing skills as compared to the various American’s posting here, talking about Tesla’s and loosing confidence in there breaks.

Frankly I would rather see more European participation in this forum as they don't tend to be die-hard fanboys of the brand (they know for example that Tesla is not perfect, Elon Musk doesn't piss lemonade, etc.), and they are pretty pragmatic in their comparisons of products to the big brands in Europe, which frankly, are quite excellent.

 

[banned-66611]

The only reason that the trunk leaks is you either didn't close it all the way or you have the very high expectation that you can open it with water on it without water drizzling into the inside of the compartment.

I don't see Tesla revising the rain guttering soon to address this as there are probably some mechanical limitations.

Shame they didn't put a decent door on the Model Y to fix that problem.

 

[michelcolman]

Another European here (Belgian). Love the car, love the handling, love the acceleration, even love the paint ;-)

The only thing that's been disappointing so far, is TACC and autopilot. Had a few phantom braking events (scary with a car behind me), but even in its normal operation I don't like the way it drives. It's constantly cycling between acceleration and regen, often even lighting the brake lights. Since I hate driving behind someone who taps his brakes every 10 seconds (you never know when it's real braking or just another meaningless tap), I really don't want to be that kind of guy myself. Also, it's very inefficient. Cruise control is normally supposed to save energy, but I'm sure I use less energy with TACC off. Also, the transitions are not smooth. One moment you're accelerating, and then in a tenth of a second it switches to regen, and half a second later we're accelerating again. No anticipation, no smoothing, just binary reactions. I always try to smooth out the speed changes of the car ahead of me, but the Model 3 actually amplifies them. And if someone cuts in ahead of you, the car immediately brakes, creating dangerous situations and traffic jams behind you. Absolutely awful.

Lane change is also pretty bad, it's basically unusable. It often refuses to change even though there's plenty of space (but you're blinking so cars behind you start to accelerate in anticipation and then have to brake as you're not leaving the lane), and if you don't hold the blinker it sometimes actually jerks back mid-maneuver (for what possible reason would that EVER be considered safer than continuing the slow lane change?!). Also, the car sometimes brakes even though you're changing into an empty lane. Europeans normally change lanes a lot because we have to drive on the right whenever that lane is free. Middle and left lanes are only for overtaking. But with Model 3, you need a mile of free space to change to the right lane or it will refuse, brake, or both.

So basically, I just have AP as a gimmick to try once in a while, hoping it will get better, but not really using it as intended. I keep trying it, since I'm a bit of a geek and love technology, but I keep getting disappointed and turning it back off. I don't want people to think I drive this badly.

I just got 2019.8.3, haven't tried AP on that version yet.

Anyway, the rest of the car is absolutely great. Never regretted buying it, and I'm hardly driving our Merc anymore. Even though I have to drive more slowly (still above the speed limit, but not as much) to make it without recharging. It's worth the extra 10 minutes of travel time. (edit: My commute is 314 km, my Merc does the round trip at 160 km/h, the Model 3 makes it one way at around 140 km/h)

 

[TeeEmCee]

It's constantly cycling between acceleration and regen, often even lighting the brake lights. Since I hate driving behind someone who taps his brakes every 10 seconds (you never know when it's real braking or just another meaningless tap)

Clearly not used to the American digital driving! It is illegal here to not be smashing either the acceleration or the brake at any one time.

So basically, I just have AP as a gimmick to try once in a while, hoping it will get better, but not really using it as intended. I keep trying it, since I'm a bit of a geek and love technology, but I keep getting disappointed and turning it back off. I don't want people to think I drive this badly.

Yeah, don't ever say this while in the US. You will be tarred and feathered, removed from the visa waiver program and sentenced to do hard time in the Fremont reeducation camp!

(edit: My commute is 314 km, my Merc does the round trip at 160 km/h, the Model 3 makes it one way at around 140 km/h)

Do you find the acceleration adequate from around 140 Km/h?

 

[michelcolman]

Clearly not used to the American digital driving!

I agree that AP is probably better suited for American driving, where cars just stay in their lane and follow the car in front of them, most on cruise control. European driving is a bit more dynamic.

Do you find the acceleration adequate from around 140 Km/h?

Sure, more than adequate. It still adds about 10 km/h per second, which is around 3 times the acceleration of my Merc (E200 Diesel). It's so smooth, silent and quick it often surprises me (oh, I'm at 160 already, I thought we were barely passing 140?!)

 

[voip-ninja]

I agree that AP is probably better suited for American driving, where cars just stay in their lane and follow the car in front of them, most on cruise control. European driving is a bit more dynamic.

LOL you will NOT see that kind of driving behavior in major American metro areas, only on the interstate highways that stretch for hours between metro hubs.

If anything you will see lots of quite aggressive driving, lack of lane discipline, overtaking on the right, people trying to shave 1 minute off their commute time by dangerously carving through lanes at +15mph from flow of traffic, etc.

You have to understand the use of AP to get the most out of it. AP is used to allow you to mentally relax and let the car do some of the work like boring lane keeping on your drive, or taking 90% of the task away completely if stuck in traffic.

At those tasks AP shines. I was highly skeptical of the utility of AP until I used it extensively on a 3.5 hour roundtrip to the mountains where it proved its value. When I'm driving for over 90 minutes on a curving mountain road it becomes a bit of a chore to lane keep and monitor speed in slow moving traffic where it would be dangerous to drive too quickly around lots of slow cars.

AP is probably at least 3-5 years away from being able to replicate the driving behavior of a highly accomplished driver on either American or European roads.