How are LFP batteries holding up?

[kelvin 660]

LFP batteries have been around now for about 9 months and I was wondering how they are holding up in terms of degradation.

So do you have a SR+ with LFP batteries? Do you use TeslaFi? If so, can you post a PDF of the battery degradation chart?

As an example, I have posted a PDF of mine. However it uses NCA batteries. According to the chart it has lost 9% in 12 months. It will be interesting to compare this with LFP to see if there is a major difference...

 

[kelvin 660]

Here is some backup data that you can compare cars with @Adopado.

 

[WannabeOwner]

I am also curious about actual efficiency comparisons, if that's possible i.e. Wh/mile

TeslaFi has a graph of "Speed Efficiency". That shows Wh/Mile for each speed interval (10-15MPH, 15-20MPh, etc.)

That can be done for a Date Range.

So two such reports, one for 01-Jan-2021 - 31-Dec-2021, and another for 01-Jan-2022 - 31-Dec-2022 might get what you are after?

There is also a "compare" option, which will graph two lines, for two different date ranges

Here's my old MS PD90 against the current MS LR (Raven) (date-range = lifetime for original, and from-new-to-date for the latter)

P.S. Total mileage is a lot less than I did in the car, and Old Car was 95K miles, new car is only at 25K so not sure about the "Miles Recorded" bit ...

I can't believe that I did a significant mileage on trips < 10 miles ... at that time my commute was 50 miles each way, and several days a month 200+ miles ... Anyway, a "starting point" maybe.

 

[Baluchi]

I'm currently on a road trip in my 2021 SR+ LFP. Original max range was 253 miles, and now the max is 246 (at 19,000 miles). Anyway, I drove from Missouri to Vermont last week, which was about 1,300 miles with a stop at Niagara Falls. Zero issues with the range--it has plenty and I passed a lot of superchargers without needing to stop. The town I'm staying in doesn't have a supercharger, but it's got several level 2 chargers I'm using as needed. The LFP car really proved it's all I need this week.

...and I see now this is a UK thread. I'll leave my post for now, but I'm happy to delete if anyone thinks it's confusing to have it here.

 

[kelvin 660]

...and I see now this is a UK thread. I'll leave my post for now, but I'm happy to delete if anyone thinks it's confusing to have it here.

Always good to have another data point, even if it's from the USA. I never understood why USA car had a starting range if 253 where as Europe had 264?? Maybe based on slightly different 100% efficiency numbers. Mine is ~192 wh/mile
Still what's a few miles between friend's!

 

[Baluchi]

Always good to have another data point, even if it's from the USA. I never understood why USA car had a starting range if 253 where as Europe had 264?? Maybe based on slightly different 100% efficiency numbers. Mine is ~192 wh/mile
Still what's a few miles between friend's!

Yeah, I think originally the Fremont factory was shoehorning Chinese LFP packs into NCA cars... maybe that dictated a slightly smaller pack? In normal use, I see 190-210 wh/mi. But the long, long stretches of freeway driving on this road trip has been more like 250-260 wh/mi. Which I didn't expect...but I suppose it makes sense given hours of continuous driving at 85 mph, plus almost no regen due to a lack of stopping.

 

[kelvin 660]

As promised, here is my one year update comparing a 2020 Freemont NCA SR+ with a 2021 MIC SR+ LFP model 3;

Efficiency

I travelled just over 12,000 miles in both cars making similar journeys, so it is possible to see the difference between a car with electrical heating compared to one that has a heat pump.

As can be seen from the graph above, the newer LFP car has a better efficiency throughout the year, but comes into its own during the cold winter months when it was ~40 w/mile more efficient! Summer time the difference is about 20 w/mile. The only time that the cars had almost the same efficiency was during the Jul-21 heatwave when the air con in the LFP car was running flat-out for most of the month.

The one year average efficiency was 278 w/mile for NCA and 242 w/mile for the LFP car.

Battery degradation

The NCA car had started life with 236 mile range at 100% SoC and after one year the BMS reported a range of 214 miles @ 100% SoC - a loss of range of ~10%.

Whereas the LFP car started life with 263 mile range at 100% and after one year the BMS reports a range of 256 miles @ 100% SoC - a loss of range of around ~2.7%.

Conclusion

The LFP car with heat pump appears to be almost 15% more efficient than my old NCA car. I didn't find any difference in comfort levels between both cars and warm-up/cool-down times seems to be the same.

According to the BMS the LFP car has a degradation rate about 4 times less than NCA battery cars, during the first year. Only time will tell how good the battery life will be over time... However the increased range, by being able to charge to 100% daily is much appreciated when it comes to making an EV car as easy to live with as an ICE car.

The way I think about it, is that the LFP SR+ car is equivalent to an ICE car with a petrol tank capacity of 5 gallons (200 miles / 40 mpg), whereas a NCA SR+ (charging to 80%) is equivalent to an ICE car with a petrol tank capacity of 4 gallons (160 miles / 40 mpg). Incidentally, a LR NCA car has a tank capacity of 280 miles / 40 mpg = 7 gallons.

The only negative I have seen is that the LFP has reduced regen compared to NCA when the temperature drops below around 12C. However that's not a bad thing as it means the brakes get used during the winter stopping them from seizing up!

 

[Adopado]

However the increased range, by being able to charge to 100% daily is much appreciated when it comes to making an EV car as easy to live with as an ICE car.

The only negative I have seen is that the LFP has reduced regen compared to NCA when the temperature drops below around 12C. However that's not a bad thing as it means the brakes get used during the winter stopping them from seizing up!

Really significant points. It must narrow the effective daily range difference between the RWD and the LR. I am specifically running "low regen" on my SR+ to help clean the brake discs. Of course this option isn't available on more recent cars so the LFP moderation of regen in colder temps looks like an advantage. (I've not noticed any change to range when varying regen level if all other factors remain the same.)

What's your typical pattern of road use? Are you doing quite a high proportion of motorway miles? I ask because the overall average Wh/mile for both vehicles looks just a touch on the high side. (I do a low percentage of motorway and a high percentage of relaxed country roads and have a lifetime average of 244 Wh/mile on my 2019 Fremont SR+)

 

[GeorgeSymonds]

I’ve certainly seen it said that a pre heat pump early LR has similar winter range to a later heat pump, LFP @100%, SR+/RWD and cost fairly similar money, plus the SR+/RWD might have the heated steering wheel, better build quality, and more warranty.

It would be interesting to know how much the first car really lost as plenty talk about cell balancing and BMS calibration. My previous M3 LR I left on charge at 100% as advised in some of the guides and it added 4 miles after it had said it had finished charging. Either way, the LFP battery has performed very well and seemingly without the need for messing around to try and recover range when it’s been lost.

 

[kelvin 660]

What's your typical pattern of road use? Are you doing quite a high proportion of motorway miles? I ask because the overall average Wh/mile for both vehicles looks just a touch on the high side. (I do a low percentage of motorway and a high percentage of relaxed country roads and have a lifetime average of 244 Wh/mile on my 2019 Fremont SR+)

Well because I'm retired I do a lot of short trips around town (not good for consumption) as well as longer runs of 160 miles on weekends. So about 1/3 motorway, 1/3 A roads and 1/2 town roads. On a longer trip in the summer I did get down to 190 w/mile, but normally I'm not a slow driver...

 

[Buzzliteyear]

Thanks for sharing your data.
I chose the SR+ over a LR because of the ability to charge to 100%, lower cost for nearly identical distance to a LR set to a recommended daily limit. Still have mine in chill mode, the acceleration is still enough for most situation.

if it wasn’t for using sentry mode while at work, my commuting to and from home would be 1-1.5KWh for a 7 mile round trip.

 

[hgmichna]

Model 3 RWD 2022-02, 60 kWh, 18 inch all-weather tyres, Ryzen processor, displays a 3% shorter range after 20,000 km ≈ 12,000 miles.

This is normal, according to Degradation. Looks good to me. Degradation tends to slow over the years.

 

[yessuz]

Thanks for sharing your data.
I chose the SR+ over a LR because of the ability to charge to 100%, lower cost for nearly identical distance to a LR set to a recommended daily limit. Still have mine in chill mode, the acceleration is still enough for most situation.

if it wasn’t for using sentry mode while at work, my commuting to and from home would be 1-1.5KWh for a 7 mile round trip.

how much range is your SR+ with 100%?

My LR shows 280 miles at 80% charge, 300+ @ 90% charge (which is still within daily charge limits)

btw, I think SR+ charges slower @ supercharger than LR/P (can accept lower max charge)

 

[SR-Plus]

how much range is your SR+ with 100%?

My LR shows 280 miles at 80% charge, 300+ @ 90% charge (which is still within daily charge limits)

btw, I think SR+ charges slower @ supercharger than LR/P (can accept lower max charge)

Yes a SR+ / RWD charges slower but the battery is smaller so takes the same time to recharge as a LR/P

 

[Buzzliteyear]

how much range is your SR+ with 100%?

My LR shows 280 miles at 80% charge, 300+ @ 90% charge (which is still within daily charge limits)

btw, I think SR+ charges slower @ supercharger than LR/P (can accept lower max charge)

271 when I first got it and now 266.
I should have phrased it, as not to different to the LR at the time that I was looking to buy.

 

[yessuz]

271 when I first got it and now 266.
I should have phrased it, as not to different to the LR at the time that I was looking to buy.

but...

 

[Buzzliteyear]

The test drive was in a LR, I admit it was quick. I'd rather keep my license lol
Chill mode is fine for me, only used standard twice.

 

[Big_D]

but...
View attachment 859479

Not really. I’m SR+. Only time when charging speed matters is when I’m in the middle of a journey, and I’ve only charged at a superchargers on those occasions. Has never taken me more than 20 minutes max, enough for a coffee and toilet break, and just to get me home (where it can charge all night).

 

[Buzzliteyear]

Not really. I’m SR+. Only time when charging speed matters is when I’m in the middle of a journey, and I’ve only charged at a superchargers on those occasions. Has never taken me more than 20 minutes max, enough for a coffee and toilet break, and just to get me home (where it can charge all night).

At one supercharger that was busy I only had enough time to run in to the services for p and buy a sandwich.

I have since realized that if the limit has been reduced to 80%, you can override it if necessary.

 

[Adopado]

Not really. I’m SR+. Only time when charging speed matters is when I’m in the middle of a journey, and I’ve only charged at a superchargers on those occasions. Has never taken me more than 20 minutes max, enough for a coffee and toilet break, and just to get me home (where it can charge all night).

He means acceleration bragging rights.

 

[yessuz]

He means acceleration bragging rights.