SmartElectric
Active Member
Just like there will always be a market for flip phones and film photography.
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How hard would it be to make an electric semi truck
- Thread starter AMPd
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Just like there will always be a market for flip phones and film photography.
JRP3
Hyperactive Member
From the hydrogen gas bubble that must have formed in my brain when I wrote that. Basic physics fail on my part.
I see your point
But if you have lower - or no - tax on zero-emission cars and raise the tax on fossil cars by the same amount you end up with the fossil cars buyers "subsidizing" the tax on the zero-emission cars, and no "government spending". As a bonus zero-emission car buyers get a more value from the lowered tax compared to buying a fossil car.actually the republican's like govt spending just fine. See bush II and the crazy increase in Ed govt spending or mortgage subsidies. They are simply looking to spend in a different direction.
Anyhow this thread has gone to crap. Are we discussing EV Trucks or not? Because they are surely coming and soon.
Anyhow this thread has gone to crap. Are we discussing EV Trucks or not? Because they are surely coming and soon.
Electric Semi is my dream vehicle. Unfortunately it will be the very last vehicle to go completely electric (if it even is possible). To make it feasible the truck would have to be able to have a range of 700-800 miles at 5mpg of #2 Diesel equivalent. Assuming there is no efficiency gains a electric semi would have to have a 5,313 kWh battery pack. I could only find the weight of the 85 (actual 81 kWh) pack. Extrapolate that out and input the the 5,313 kWh pack and the weight comes to 86,779lbs. I'm starting to think Electric Semis are a nonstarter right off the bat. No diesel would save 5,000 pounds so Tesla would have that much weight to install the Electric drive frame and battery. Right now 1 kWh of electricity in battery storage weighs 16 lbs. I look forward to seeing how Tesla can do this.
Power lines over the roads that connect to a arm at the top of the truck would not work either. Drive the interstates and you will see MANY oversize loads that get moved by truck. This would hinder that. Another thing to consider would be the Power Demand. Most trucks would be charging at the same time. Would the Power Company be able to support this? Can Superchargers be built to Charge a minimum of 400 miles within 30 minutes? This is just some of the challenges Tesla has to overcome.
Power lines over the roads that connect to a arm at the top of the truck would not work either. Drive the interstates and you will see MANY oversize loads that get moved by truck. This would hinder that. Another thing to consider would be the Power Demand. Most trucks would be charging at the same time. Would the Power Company be able to support this? Can Superchargers be built to Charge a minimum of 400 miles within 30 minutes? This is just some of the challenges Tesla has to overcome.
cpa
Active Member
I cannot find it now, but I recall that there was a recent story about electric yard dogs (yes, I know, not a semi) being used somewhere in Fontana, and there were others to be used in a railroad freight yard. So, small progress is being made for a tractor-type vehicle used to haul trailers short distances within a small area.
There is a company that manufactures these for this specific purpose. I do not recall the name of the company either.
There is a company that manufactures these for this specific purpose. I do not recall the name of the company either.
There are several for short range but nothing for long range. FedEx has more of those than the failure that has become cng in Semis.
I do wonder what size a battery pack would be needed for 700 miles of worst case scenario range. The pack size I suggested doesn't account for efficiency gains which should significantly reduce the size needed but it would still be very large and heavy....at least with what's used in Teslas today.
The problem with your calculation is that you are basing it on the Model S technology, which is already 5 years old and obsolete. Tesla will build the semi based on the Model-3 tech, which is designed for lighter, smaller and cheaper car. When they scale that to semi requirements, they will have a much better shot. Of course, it is all speculation at this point, we need to wait for the M3 to be released to see what the battery pack and motor specs are for that. Mind you, it is not only about battery pack, the inverter, motor and body-shape also plays a role in determining range per kWh, and again Model-3 tech is better at that than Model S.
So I'd say lets wait until Model 3 is released, then run calculations based on that tech for range / battery size / weight etc.
Chattanooga's biggest trucking carrier is going electric, at least with some of its fleet, in the next three to five years.
Catchy news title. Unfortunately in the details you can read that it's going to be powered by hydrogen on a electric drive train.
This is not something that I would call a Electric Semi.
Pioneering new electric semi-trucks to be made in Tennessee
I was purposefully using a very conservative estimate when I came up with those numbers. I tried finding details for the latest parts. Unfortunately I could only find some mildly dated numbers.
We can and will have to wait for the Model 3 for more accurate numbers but there is nothing wrong with throwing out estimates based on what we know now.
I don’t think that’s the right metric—it’s a common error to try and compare a hypothetical future with a current reality. IMHO an electric semi does NOT need to have range equivalent to a current diesel long-haul to compete that diesel long-haul route.
Among the reasons:
1. It all comes down to money. It is not about range. It is not about transport time. It is not about driver regulations (rest, etc.). It is not about capex. It is not about recurring cost (charging, etc.). It is not about maintenance. A transportation company is explicitly in the business of making money. If an electric long haul will make more money after re-balancing all of those variables compared to diesel, then electric wins.
2. The future of an electric cargo fleet doesn’t necessarily look like a current day fleet. There may be MegaCharging. There may be battery swaps. There may be vehicle swaps. Heck, there may even be in-flight re-charging.
3. Automated vehicles are going to change everything. We got a glimpse into a potential future with the driverless container trucks in Logan. Autonomous long hauls can operate 24/7 instead of working around driver schedules. Autonomous long hauls don’t care what tractor is pulling them.
Red Sage
The Cybernetic Samurai
Think of it the other way around. One gallon of #2 Diesel holds 37.95 kWh of energy. At best, modern semi engines might manage perhaps 36% efficiency and 6 MPG. So basically 133 gallons of fuel to cover that 800 mile range. That is 5,060 kWh. But at 36% efficiency, only about 1,822 kWh would be used toward motive force. Since electric vehicles are closer to 90% efficiency instead, a reserve of only 2,024 kWh would be able to cover the same distance in an EV to perform the same work.
The charging speed should not be an issue, and neither would the weight.
NeverFollow
Active Member
Could you give an estimate of a battery size (capacity, weight) for storing the mentioned 2,024 kWh?
It might be difficult to compare trucks and cars, but just to have an idea,
a Model S100D has a range of 335 miles, so a Model S with a 250 kW battery
could go about 837 miles (without the lost for the additional weight...)
Also for the future generation of batteries based on 800 v and 350 kW superchargers,
what would be the charging time?
Terberg sells battery-electric yard tractors that can carry over 140,000 lb at speeds up to 25 mph (plenty fast enough for the yard)
GSP
Terberg YT202-EV port/yard tractors - Fully electric! - Terberg
YARD/PORT TRACTOR
FULLY ELECTRIC
The Terberg YT202-EV is a fully electric yard tractor designed for moving trailers in distribution centres, transport depots, container terminals, etc. The spacious and comfortable driver's cab offers excellent visibility and has an inboard door for safety and convenience. Fully electric drive means the vehicle is economical to operate and does not lead to emissions at the point of use. The electric motor requires much less maintenance than a diesel engine and is quieter.
SPECIFICATIONS
Driveline 4 x 2
* GCW 65 t
** Engine 138 kW
** Transmission Allison 3000 (4/5F-1R)
Front axle capacity 11 t @20 km/h
Rear axle capacity 35 t @20 km/h
5th wheel Terberg cast steel plate 2"
5th wheel capacity 36 t
5th wheel lifting capacity Up to 36 t
Lowest 5th wheel height 929 mm
Seat Forward facing
Left and right-hand drive Available
* Ratings depend on operating conditions, etc.
** Other driveline components are available.
Please contact your Terberg or your local agent to discuss the most suitable model and options for your application.
Now that's some math I was looking for. 2 Megawatt battery pack. 800 miles of range would be enough for the company I work for to go all in as long as charging could be done in a hour or to say 80% in 20-30 minutes. Charging would have to be figured out. Would the power company be able to supply such a huge demand? 2 mWh would have to be the minimum speed for it to be feasible.
Red Sage
The Cybernetic Samurai
Power companies exist to supply the needs of Government, Military, and Commercial concerns. They will have no problem supporting electric semi trucks for transport on public roads. They will likely welcome it.
The power of electric vehicles has long been hidden from public eyes by confining them to loading docks, shipyards, train yards, airports, and even space centers. The instantaneous and consistent application of torque delivered by electric vehicles doesn't care about weight.
Some long distance carriers limit their vehicles to 65 MPH or less anyway. So an 800 mile one-way trek would take 12 hours at that rate. NHTSA requires down time for drivers anyway, so there is plenty of time for recharging. Though I expect drivers would modify their driving to stop sooner rather then going the full potential distance. And eventually, the range of the semi trucks would be beyond the biological capabilities of drivers anyway. That would move them to the position of 'Operator' instead, once Autonomy is introduced for the majority of transport.
The power of electric vehicles has long been hidden from public eyes by confining them to loading docks, shipyards, train yards, airports, and even space centers. The instantaneous and consistent application of torque delivered by electric vehicles doesn't care about weight.
Some long distance carriers limit their vehicles to 65 MPH or less anyway. So an 800 mile one-way trek would take 12 hours at that rate. NHTSA requires down time for drivers anyway, so there is plenty of time for recharging. Though I expect drivers would modify their driving to stop sooner rather then going the full potential distance. And eventually, the range of the semi trucks would be beyond the biological capabilities of drivers anyway. That would move them to the position of 'Operator' instead, once Autonomy is introduced for the majority of transport.
Rashomon
Member
There are easy electric vehicles and hard ones. Short-distance all-electric work trucks: pretty easy. Long-distance pure-electric trucks or long-distance electric airliners: impossibly hard at current and near-future energy densities, at least in a way that makes economic sense. But both of those vehicle types can gain much from electrification and hybrid designs. Wrightspeed is doing good work and winning some contracts on the truck side. There are some good theoretical studies on hybrid airliners from NASA and others that show big efficiency gains, though current fuel prices will likely delay actual vehicles based on that work -- airline fleet replacement has already slowed down because improved efficiency doesn't buy you as much as it did when oil was more than twice as much or more as it is now. (Oil prices are unlikely to go up much in the next five years or more barring wars; technology has opened up a lot of new resources).
It will be interesting to see what Tesla shows for a semi-tractor. There are clearly niches where such a truck would be of interest right now -- but it's not the classic long-distance market. They may show something interesting with battery swaps for some very specialized routes: Reno to the Bay Area and back, anyone?
For the long-distance market, serial-hybrid trucks, perhaps using LNG, are likely to emerge in the relatively short-term. It's possible to achieve electricity production at perhaps 35-40 percent efficiency onboard such a vehicle, and an all-electric drivetrain would offer a lot of other advantages. If you were using LNG for fuel, NOx and particulate emissions could be far better than even the most advanced diesels. 35-40 percent efficiency also looks pretty good compared to average grid generator efficiency after transmission losses, so it's not clear how much economic advantage a pure electric would have over these until we achieve solar and/or nuclear low-cost grid power nirvana.
It will be interesting to see what Tesla shows for a semi-tractor. There are clearly niches where such a truck would be of interest right now -- but it's not the classic long-distance market. They may show something interesting with battery swaps for some very specialized routes: Reno to the Bay Area and back, anyone?
For the long-distance market, serial-hybrid trucks, perhaps using LNG, are likely to emerge in the relatively short-term. It's possible to achieve electricity production at perhaps 35-40 percent efficiency onboard such a vehicle, and an all-electric drivetrain would offer a lot of other advantages. If you were using LNG for fuel, NOx and particulate emissions could be far better than even the most advanced diesels. 35-40 percent efficiency also looks pretty good compared to average grid generator efficiency after transmission losses, so it's not clear how much economic advantage a pure electric would have over these until we achieve solar and/or nuclear low-cost grid power nirvana.
Red Sage
The Cybernetic Samurai
Hybrids are a dead end. Just a delaying tactic that allows for something that can be 'sold' to those who aren't willing to do the math in the short term. Well within a decade, the best that can be accomplished with a hybrid will be surpassed by electric drive. Fact of the matter is that no one enjoys filling up with gasoline or diesel. It has nothing to do with range. It is all about visiting the gas station as few times as possible. And the promise of fully electric drive is lowering that count to a 'never again' total.
That's a lot of power to be demanded all at once which is why I was unsure if a the infrastructure could supply that much power at once.
The company I work for the trucks drive for 622 miles roundtrip. The day driver gets back and the night driver drives it overnight a hour or so after the day guy leaves it. Sometimes the trucks only sit in the yard a half hour so there would have to be massive fast charging. 80% in 30 minutes will be a requirement I predict. Many local companies operate this way. Over-The-Road have too many challenges so they will be the very last trucks to go electric. Actually some carriers may die out because of this.
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