Welcome to Tesla Motors Club
Discuss Tesla's Model S, Model 3, Model X, Model Y, Cybertruck, Roadster and More.
Register

How I Recovered Half of my Battery's Lost Capacity

This site may earn commission on affiliate links.
You'll never get the BMS to get the brick balancing to run that way. The formula is very clearly called out in the Model 3 Theory of Operations guide, which I assume you've read? The shunt resistors don't close unless: SoC > 85%, Vehicle State = Sleeping and ∆V > 5mV

It takes about 24 hours to reduce the imbalance by 1mV.

Spending some time at SOC > 85% is good for the battery.

So to confirm, after completing a charge at 90%, you are saying it’s good to let it sit idle for good number of hours if possible? Opposite to what TimothyHW3 said?

What is this Model 3 Theory of Operations guide you mention? Can you share this so I can read?
 
So to confirm, after completing a charge at 90%, you are saying it’s good to let it sit idle for good number of hours if possible? Opposite to what TimothyHW3 said?

What is this Model 3 Theory of Operations guide you mention? Can you share this so I can read?

To be clear, brick balancing shouldn’t be needed often. But if the battery needs it, it won’t happen unless/until the above conditions are met.

The theory of operations guide is available with a Tesla Service subscription.
 
Model 3 Theory of Operations guide, which I assume you've read? The shunt resistors don't close unless: SoC > 85%, Vehicle State = Sleeping and ∆V > 5mV

It takes about 24 hours to reduce the imbalance by 1mV.

Spending some time at SOC > 85% is good for the battery.
Yes, I have read it and I take it with a grain of salt, because we are not sure this is a real document or if it isn't outdated. Specifically the part with 85% SOC is misleading because they say "4v is equivalent of 85% on a Model 3" - 4V is not 85% on a Model 3, 4V and below is around 67-70% depending on the degradation.
So I am not sure how they can get that part so wrong - might have been a design pack or an older test configuration. Or the document is outdated. Either way the 85% part in that document is wrong.

Also, cell imbalance is not the issue, the BMS misscalculation is. Most cars that have low range/high kWh capacity loss have perfect cell imbalance, at least from what I have seen from SMT data.

Spending some time at SOC > 85% is good for the battery.
It is definetely not good for the battery and that is a fact.
It is good for the BMS, maybe, because the BMS on Model 3 works funky, but not good for the battery, not at all. But like I said multiple times, the difference will be minimal over the lifespan of the car. Hence I like a balanced BMS vs a kWh more or less.
 
Last edited:
  • Helpful
Reactions: Arctic_White
In terms of large range discharges, would 80 - 20 still be suffice instead of 90 - 10?
I would prefer 10%-90% if I were you. You can try 20-80, but 10-90 is better.
You guys should download an app like AccuBattery for Android to understand how this works, Tesla is doing the same thing on a higher level. They know the V at different SOC and they compare it each time you charge. That's it. They might run some other V measurements and funky stuff, but the gist is the same. The only way AccuBattery can measure degradation is if you can charge it a few times close to 100%, meaning 1-100% (without using the phone while charging) and then it will read how many mAh were added and calculate the degradation based on a base level mAh for your phone. It is pretty basic, compared to Tesla, but the idea is the same.

https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.digibites.accubattery
 
My 2020 M3LR also seemed to be suffering quite rapid range loss, and by early October only 3% of similar cars had a lower range than mine (according to TeslaFi’s battery degradation report). Previously, I usually kept the battery charged between 50-80%, had Sentry Mode on at work and charged as soon as I got home. A quick search brought up this thread, so for the last month (since 6 October) I have followed the advice given by @SomeJoe7777 i.e. to let the battery run down more and let the car sleep for a few hours at different states of charge. The lowest (so far) has been about 6hrs at 14%, and the highest about 8hrs at 100% (the latter followed by a 240 mile road trip). As you can see in the graph below, my range is recovering, and now 26% of cars have a lower range. I’m hoping that this trend continues and I get back to having a better than average range as I did when I first got TeslaFi.

TeslaFi-range.jpg
 
Last edited:
The lowest (so far) has been about 6hrs at 14%, and the highest about 8hrs at 100%

Good to hear you are seeing positive results.
You mention letting the car sleep at different soc. Are you saying you left the car sitting at 100% soc for about 8 hours? Hearing the advice from others, and also from what i've read...I don't think this is good for the battery?
When I charge the car to 100% (only done this x6 times), I always drive the soc below 90% immediately once the charge completes.
I have however left the car for many hours at 90%, but just never at 100%.
 
Good to hear you are seeing positive results.
You mention letting the car sleep at different soc. Are you saying you left the car sitting at 100% soc for about 8 hours? Hearing the advice from others, and also from what i've read...I don't think this is good for the battery?
When I charge the car to 100% (only done this x6 times), I always drive the soc below 90% immediately once the charge completes.
I have however left the car for many hours at 90%, but just never at 100%.

Good point. I hadn't intended to leave it at 100% for quite so long (I was aiming for about 4hrs), but charging finished a bit quicker than expected and we left home a bit later than expected, hence 8hr. I have also read that it isn't a good idea to leave it sitting at 100% for a long time, but then I have also read differing opinions as to what constitutes a 'long time' (some say days, other weeks). I think if it was that bad then the user guide would tell us to depart immediately if charged to 100%. Also, I'm not planning to charge to 100% very often - that was my first 100% charge, and I will drop back to my 80% limit for day-to-day commuting.
 
Last edited:
It would be better if the title of this thread were different. If there were true capacity loss, then it would be gone and you would not be able to recover it. In general, this occurs at a known rate (to Tesla). This thread is about recalibrating the BMS so that it more closely approximates actual range in relation to the energy remaining in the battery pack. I have never seen my remaining miles at 322. The total mileage as listed by the BMS has been sitting at about 300-305 for months (7,500 miles on the car). Many of us on these forums are geeky, so it is just the sort of thing to drive people like us nuts. My solution is to leave it on percent. That being said, I have, to some extent, adopted a more relaxed attitude towards charging after this thread was initiated (90-35% ish) and looking at the mileage estimation every once in a while. Rather than keeping it at 90% most of the time (I drive about 20-25 miles a day), I thought it might preserve the battery a bit more if it were at some middle percentage most of the time. Since I have no data, this could be pure nonsense, but it does amuse me.
 
  • Funny
Reactions: KenC
Sometimes a rebalancing takes care of the problem, and other times, as appears to be the case with my Model 3, it's just a lemon of a battery. I have tried all of the procedures mention in this post and others, and my estimated range continues to drop in a fairly steep decline, from 322 down to the 250s. Yes, I know that it's an estimate, but the actual range is a fraction of that. I have not taken it from 100% to zero, but extrapolating the range from daily driving suggests a range of not much more than 150 miles. Yes, I know that various factors can affect range, but my estimates are based upon pretty reasonable driving circumstances, and much of it with Autopilot engaged. Here was the comparison with LR AWD Model 3s with approx. 30K in miles from a month ago from the BatteryCompare v1.5 app:

image0.jpeg

My experience with Tesla Service up until this point has been very good, but I have alerted them to the battery problem on numerous occasions. Each time, the response was "it's fine." I asked the Clarkston, Michigan Service Center for an in-depth investigation of the health of the battery in October, and the day before my appointment, they cancelled it through the app without explanation. When I spoke to them on the phone, they said that I could come in anyway and speak with the resident expert on batteries. I did, and the representative was uncharacteristically condescending and frankly, quite rude. He admittedly had not taken a look at any data pertaining to the car, but informed me nevertheless that my concerns were unfounded and that everything was fine. When pressed about the fact that he did not look at anything that would support a conclusion of any kind, he grudgingly agreed to download the data from my car, and spend two hours to review it. He further said that I would be charged $87.50 per hour for this time, if there was no evidence of a problem. He could not, he explained, reveal any of the data as it is proprietary. I would have to be satisfied with the same "it's fine" if that was the conclusion that he reached. He was to call back that afternoon with his results. As I expected, he didn't call back.

To be clear, I have been a strong advocate for the company, and otherwise love my car. I have recommended the car to many people, and have given numerous test drives. I am an early adopter and evangelist for the product, But I have invested $60K into this car (after tax credit), and I simply cannot accept this abnormal range loss. Tesla is making a very short-term decision not to address the problems that a few owners are experiencing. This is about to become a bigger problem for Tesla than it is now.
 
Sometimes a rebalancing takes care of the problem, and other times, as appears to be the case with my Model 3, it's just a lemon of a battery. I have tried all of the procedures mention in this post and others, and my estimated range continues to drop in a fairly steep decline, from 322 down to the 250s.

I simply cannot accept this abnormal range loss.

If your 100% charge is really down to the 250s and still dropping you won't have to wait much longer as the battery warranty kicks in at 30% capacity loss, or 225 miles of range at 100%.
 
as appears to be the case with my Model 3, it's just a lemon of a battery
I would not reach that conclusion until I had done two things:

1. Hooked up 'scan my Tesla' to an OBDII
2. Charged to full, reset a trip meter and read the Wh/mile * miles after a trip that used up 90% of the reported SoC. You cannot drag this test out over multiple days due to possible confounding vampire drain.
 
Last edited:
If your 100% charge is really down to the 250s and still dropping you won't have to wait much longer as the battery warranty kicks in at 30% capacity loss, or 225 miles of range at 100%.
Yep.

Also, in the case of the Model S anyway, it seems that a few 100% to 10% cycles of the battery pack can also help encourage the BMS to trigger an error code, which is something that the service center won't ignore. It remains to be seen if this also works with the Model 3/Y, but it can't hurt.

Alternatively, if you want to get some data from your pack on your own, you can get a CAN bus adapter and the appropriate app and read the battery data yourself. I highly suspect that in your case, you would have a single module significantly out of balance, probably because of a bad cell in the pack. This would show up easily at either high SOC (95%+) or low SOC (15%-).
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: mkobliska
Like many others, I have been concerned with loss of 100% indicated battery range on one of my Model 3s. My P3D (build date 9/13/2018, delivery date 10/8/2018) had gotten down to 270.3 miles at 100% charge on January 20, 2020, at about 30,700 miles, which is a loss of 40.8 miles since the car was new.

I posted about going to the service center to talk with them about battery degradation, which I did on March 9, 2020. It was a great service appointment and the techs at the Houston Westchase service center paid attention to my concerns and promised to follow up with a call from the lead virtual tech team technician. I detailed this service visit in the following post:

Reduced Range - Tesla Issued a Service Bulletin for possible fix

While that service visit was great, the real meat of addressing the problem came when I spoke to the virtual tech team lead. He told me some great things about the Model 3 battery and BMS. With the knowledge of what he told me, I formulated a plan to address it myself.

So here is the deal on the Model 3 battery and why many of us might be seeing this capacity degradation.

The BMS system is not only responsible for charging and monitoring of the battery, but computing the estimated range. The way it does this is to correlate the battery's terminal voltage (and the terminal voltage of each group of parallel cells) to the capacity. The BMS tries to constantly refine and calibrate that relationship between terminal voltage and capacity to display the remaining miles.

For the BMS to execute a calibration computation, it needs data. The primary data it needs to to this is what is called the Open Circuit Voltage (OCV) of the battery and each parallel group of cells. The BMS takes these OCV readings whenever it can, and when it has enough of them, it runs a calibration computation. This lets the BMS now estimate capacity vs the battery voltage. If the BMS goes for a long time without running calibration computations, then the BMS's estimate of the battery's capacity can drift away from the battery's actual capacity. The BMS is conservative in its estimates so that people will not run out of battery before the indicator reads 0 miles, so the drift is almost always in the direction of estimated capacity < actual capacity.

So, when does the BMS take OCV readings? To take a set of OCV readings, the main HV contactor must be open, and the voltages inside the pack for every group of parallel cells must stabilize. How long does that take? Well, interestingly enough, the Model 3 takes a lot longer for the voltages to stabilize than the Model S or X. The reason is because of the battery construction. All Tesla batteries have a resistor in parallel with every parallel group of cells. The purpose of these resistors is for pack balancing. When charging to 100%, these resistors allow the low cells in the parallel group to charge more than the high cells in the group, bringing all the cells closer together in terms of their state of charge. However, the drawback to these resistors is that they are the primary cause of vampire drain.

Because Tesla wanted the Model 3 battery to be the most efficient it could be, Tesla decided to decrease the vampire drain as much as possible. One step they took to accomplish this was to increase the value of all of these resistors so that the vampire drain is minimized. The resistors in the Model 3 packs are apparently around 10x the value of the ones in the Model S/X packs. So what does this do to the BMS? Well, it makes the BMS wait a lot longer to take OCV readings, because the voltages take 10x longer to stabilize. Apparently, the voltages can stabilize enough to take OCV readings in the S/X packs within 15-20 minutes, but the Model 3 can take 3+ hours.

This means that the S/X BMS can run the calibration computations a lot easier and lot more often than the Model 3. 15-20 minutes with the contactor open is enough to get a set of OCV readings. This can happen while you're out shopping or at work, allowing the BMS to get OCV readings while the battery is at various states of charge, both high and low. This is great data for the BMS, and lets it run a good calibration fairly often.

On the Model 3, this doesn't happen. With frequent small trips, no OCV readings ever get taken because the voltage doesn't stabilize before you drive the car again. Also, many of us continuously run Sentry mode whenever we're not at home, and Sentry mode keeps the contactor engaged, thus no OCV readings can be taken no matter how long you wait. For many Model 3's, the only time OCV readings get taken is at home after a battery charge is completed, as that is the only time the car gets to open the contactor and sleep. Finally, 3 hours later, OCV readings get taken.

But that means that the OCV readings are ALWAYS at your battery charge level. If you always charge to 80%, then the only data the BMS is repeatedly collecting is 80% OCV readings. This isn't enough data to make the calibration computation accurate. So even though the readings are getting taken, and the calibration computation is being periodically run, the accuracy of the BMS never improves, and the estimated capacity vs. actual capacity continues to drift apart.

So, knowing all of this, here's what I did:

1. I made it a habit to make sure that the BMS got to take OCV readings whenever possible. I turned off Sentry mode at work so that OCV readings could be taken there. I made sure that TeslaFi was set to allow the car to sleep, because if it isn't asleep, OCV readings can't get taken.

2. I quit charging every day. Round-trip to work and back for me is about 20% of the battery's capacity, and I used to normally charge to 90%. I changed my standard charge to 80%, and then I began charging the car at night only every 3 days. So day 1 gets OCV readings at 80% (after the charge is complete), day 2 at about 60% (after 1 work trip), and day 3 at about 40% (2 work trips). I arrive back home from work with about 20% charge on that last day, and if the next day isn't Saturday, then I charge. If the next day is Saturday (I normally don't go anywhere far on Saturday), then I delay the charge for a 4th day, allowing the BMS to get OCV readings at 20%. So now my BMS is getting data from various states of charge throughout the range of the battery.

3. I periodically (once a month or so) charge to 95%, then let the car sleep for 6 hours, getting OCV readings at 95%. Don't do this at 100%, as it's not good for the battery to sit with 100% charge.

4. If I'm going to take a long drive i.e. road trip, then I charge to 100% to balance the battery, then drive. I also try to time it so that I get back home with around 10% charge, and if I can do that, then I don't charge at that time. Instead, let the car sleep 6 hours so it gets OCV readings at 10%.

These steps allowed the BMS to get many OCV readings that span the entire state of charge of the battery. This gets it good data to run an accurate calibration computation.

So what's the results?

20200827Battery100PctRange.png


On 1/20/2020 at 30,700 miles, I was down to 270 miles full range, which is 40.8 miles lost (15.1 %). The first good, accurate recalibration occurred 4/16/2020 at 35,600 miles and brought the full range up to 286 miles. Then another one occurred on 8/23/2020 at 41,400 miles and brought the range up to 290 miles, now only a 20 mile loss (6.9 %).

Note that to get just two accurate calibration computations by the BMS took 7 months and 11,000 miles.

So, to summarize:

1. This issue is primarily an indication/estimation problem, not real battery capacity loss.
2. Constant Sentry mode use contributes to this problem, because the car never sleeps, so no OCV readings get taken.
3. Long voltage stabilization times in the Model 3 prevent OCV readings from getting taken frequently, contributing to BMS estimation drift.
4. Constantly charging every day means that those OCV readings that do get taken are always at the same charge level, which makes the BMS calibration inaccurate.
5. Multiple accurate calibration cycles may need to happen before the BMS accuracy improves.
6. It takes a long time (a lot of OCV readings) to cause the BMS to run a calibration computation, and therefore the procedure can take months.

I would love if someone else can perform this procedure and confirm that it works for you, especially if your Model 3 is one that has a lot of apparent degradation. It will take months, but I think we can prove that this procedure will work.

i also have a 2019 model 3 with the batteries degenerating the last past 8 months. What i was doing was charging it everyday. So i decided to give the battery a rest by charge the battery on the 4th day about 25% left with the sentry mode off. Then on the 4thday when i get home, i charge it up a 80%. Use the car on the 5 day and charge it up to 90% on Friday afternoon. So i have a full tank on Saturday at least at 90%. Then i recharged on Saturday night at 80% using 110v all day on Sunday and night with a full 80% on Monday morning. i do that cycle for 2 weeks and i got 8 miles more capacity at 90%. Will continue hopefully i will gain so more.
 
Unfortunately, that’s not how it works. Battery energy level, or SOC, is not linear with voltage.
Here’s a representative curve that I posted upthread: How I Recovered Half of my Battery's Lost Capacity
The curve is discharging. I was talking about cell voltage vs. SOC when car sitting still.

I don't have SMT to verify the voltage of each SOC, but I think since SOC is related to usable capacity (kWh, aka voltage * Ah), which should be (almost?) linear with voltage.
 
  • Informative
Reactions: beachmiles