How to avoid random/phantom braking!

[murphyS90D]

Most of my braking events have happened near large trees that overhang the road on a bright sunny day where the contrast between the shadow from the tree and and the sun illuminated area is extreme.

The collision warning has a 4 position switch - off, early, normal, late.
Those may not be the correct words. I don't feel like running down to my car to check.

 

[Battpower]

Most of my braking events have happened near large trees that overhang the road on a bright sunny day where the contrast between the shadow from the tree and and the sun illuminated area is extreme.

The collision warning has a 4 position switch - off, early, normal, late.
Those may not be the correct words. I don't feel like running down to my car to check.

That matches my observations. Are you suggesting that in your experience the fantom braking occurs during normal driving and without AP or TACC active?

I have had some 'emergency interventions' by the car during unassisted driving but I believe only related to steering and actually I'm not sure if the car actually did anything other than sound alarm and display message.

 

[murphyS90D]

That matches my observations. Are you suggesting that in your experience the fantom braking occurs during normal driving and without AP or TACC active?

I have had some 'emergency interventions' by the car during unassisted driving but I believe only related to steering and actually I'm not sure if the car actually did anything other than sound alarm and display message.

I almost always have TACC enabled. I only play with auto steer because it is too flaky for my taste. I don't trust it at all.

 

[Battpower]

I almost always have TACC enabled. I only play with auto steer because it is too flaky for my taste. I don't trust it at all.

That's funny. The one feature of my car that makes me nervous is TACC! I worry that I will forget it's on and what speed it's set at when following in a line of cars especially around intersections and on / off ramps and have the car speed up when the car in front turns off.

Also, when AP is engaged and I have to intervene with steering (foot off the gas) I certainly don't want the car to suddenly accelerate - which it could do (and has done) if TACC remains engaged despite AP dropping out.

 

[headcase]

One of the reasons I went back to using my AP1 Model S and sold my AP2 car was way too much phantom breaking. AP2+ phantom breaking is downright dangerous and nauseating, even years later.

 

[jvanyc]

It last happened while I was overtaking a large semi-truck. Slammed on the brakes and swerved to the left, even though the truck did not come close to the lane marker or us ... perhaps it was the size that fooled the sensors. I wonder if disabling side collision avoidance would prevent the car from doing that?

Had exact same scenario but without the swerve (i'm on AP1)

 

[SO16]

While using autopilot, I keep my foot on the accelerator and hand on the wheel. Helps me mitigate any phantom braking and swerving events. FSD HW2. I like to feel what AP is doing.

I think I’ve had the issue occur 3 times in 3 years. Two of those time occurred right after my windshield was replaced. Had to do a full car power off and on. That helped.

 

[David29]

How and where do you do that?

Press the voice command button, then when you hear the beep, say "Bug report" and describe what happened and where, quickly and clearly. More completely, here is what the latest (November 2019) issue of my Owner's Manual says:

Note: You can also use voice commands to
provide feedback to Tesla. Say "Note",
"Report", "Bug note", or "Bug report" (in the
English language) followed by brief comments
in your language of choice. Model S takes a
snapshot of its systems, including your current
location, vehicle diagnostic data, and screen
captures of the touchscreen and instrument
panel. Tesla periodically reviews these notes
and uses them to continue improving Model S.

Another post in this thread says that some people think this system does not actually work. I have no way to prove if it does or does not, but hope that Tesla would not put that language in the Owner's Manual without some basis! And even if they do use the reports, they may or may not use them as I earlier understood, to improve the mapping for AP.

 

[Battpower]

Press the voice command button, then when you hear the beep, say "Bug report" and describe what happened and where, quickly and clearly. More completely, here is what the latest (November 2019) issue of my Owner's Manual says:

Note: You can also use voice commands to
provide feedback to Tesla. Say "Note",
"Report", "Bug note", or "Bug report" (in the
English language) followed by brief comments
in your language of choice. Model S takes a
snapshot of its systems, including your current
location, vehicle diagnostic data, and screen
captures of the touchscreen and instrument
panel. Tesla periodically reviews these notes
and uses them to continue improving Model S.

Another post in this thread says that some people think this system does not actually work. I have no way to prove if it does or does not, but hope that Tesla would not put that language in the Owner's Manual without some basis! And even if they do use the reports, they may or may not use them as I earlier understood, to improve the mapping for AP.

Have you read the many posts that say Bug Report only makes some entries in logs held locally on your car that may be of use if accessed by Tesla Service at your request?

Like you, I have no evidence either way, but I have queried several posts in many threads here and had very emphatic responses that Bug Report does little that's of use, and certainly no RealAudio tech's eagerly dealing with all the bug reports flooding in!

It is frustrating that the Tesla language paints such a different picture and I wish they actually did use Bug Reports as suggested, but the balance of evidence I have suggests not.

 

[David29]

Have you read the many posts that say Bug Report only makes some entries in logs held locally on your car that may be of use if accessed by Tesla Service at your request?

Like you, I have no evidence either way, but I have queried several posts in many threads here and had very emphatic responses that Bug Report does little that's of use, and certainly no RealAudio tech's eagerly dealing with all the bug reports flooding in!

It is frustrating that the Tesla language paints such a different picture and I wish they actually did use Bug Reports as suggested, but the balance of evidence I have suggests not.

To answer your direct question, No, I have not read those posts. The first time I recall reading that the Bug Reports don't really go anywhere was in an earlier post in this thread, which I read just today. Maybe that was yours. But it would not surprise me that Tesla does not use the reports as I had been led to believe. As I commented elsewhere, it does seem difficult to imagine they would staff a function to read all such reports with a million or more cars on the road now, even if they might have done so in earlier years. I suppose I may have been naive to think they did, even years ago...

 

[Battpower]

To answer your direct question, No, I have not read those posts. The first time I recall reading that the Bug Reports don't really go anywhere was in an earlier post in this thread, which I read just today. Maybe that was yours. But it would not surprise me that Tesla does not use the reports as I had been led to believe. As I commented elsewhere, it does seem difficult to imagine they would staff a function to read all such reports with a million or more cars on the road now, even if they might have done so in earlier years. I suppose I may have been naive to think they did, even years ago...

Well, even if it does make a local log entry that could be of some use, I guess it's worth doing. I just like to try and keep my expectations reasonable!

 

[murphyS90D]

The bug report makes it easier to find the correct location in the log if you contact service about the problem.

 

[philip295]

I have a 2014 Ap1. My experience of the car braking and steering has always been when something is moving perpendicular to the road, in either direction. A bush in high wind caused it to brake and swerve away. This was without autopilot activated. A cyclist moving away from the road had the same effect, but when I had autopilot on. If they had been people about to jump into the road, they would have been saved.

 

[Altes]

How and where do you do that?

You press the little talking head button on the steering wheel and say "report that", the car then pauses for 10 seconds or so while it tries to decode what you said like it was a request for world peace, and then responds with "calling robert taft" Probably the WORST voice recognition in any appliance EVER

 

[2101Guy]

You can also press and hold the car icon (lower left of the MCU screen) for about 3-4 seconds, and it will log the bug report. confirmation comes up on the Instrument Cluster

 

[ElectricTravel]

One of the reasons I went back to using my AP1 Model S and sold my AP2 car was way too much phantom breaking. AP2+ phantom breaking is downright dangerous and nauseating, even years later.

I was about to say the same thing. It sounds like an off-the-wall suggestion, but "downgrading" to an Autopilot 1 car would virtually eliminate the problem.

Mine is Autopilot 1 and I do a lot of driving on Autopilot. I had an Autopilot 2 loaner in mid-2019 and I couldn't believe how bad it was. I knew that Autopilot 2 would be rough for a few months after it first came out, but had expected that these flaws would have been fixed long before then.

Honestly, when comparing the same features (traffic-aware cruise control, autosteer, etc.), the AP2 feels like a version 1.0 product and AP1 feels like version 7.0 of the same product.

 

[mrkisskiss]

AP2 is/has been awful... no doubt about that.

I'm wondering - is the phantom braking such an issue on Model 3?

I'm well aware that my lowly Model S 2017 - once heralded as the king of cars, able to "fully drive itself from your door to your destination*" is now obsolete, unable to make basic lane changes smoothly and often randomly slams on the brakes to ensure I get a great cardio workout whilst on the road.

However, the Model 3 -- this has the newer cameras, the newer radar... and the entire car was designed with the 8 camera stack in mind from the initial sketches and models all through to production (which the S wasn't). Is the 3 just as awful, or is some of the crappiness I put up with just due to the actual camera placement, type, radar range etc of the 2017 S? Or is it genuinely just a software issue...

 

[Battpower]

.... the entire car [M3] was designed with the 8 camera stack in mind ......

But does it make any use of them? Is HW3 / AP2.5 the same in most recent Model S cars as current M3?

 

[Dithermaster]

Since it seems to be theme here, and maybe Tesla is counting...

My spouse also is less comfortable as a passenger when I'm using Autopilot than when I'm driving myself.

This is for many reasons - the big one is phantom braking, but also the not-smooth starts and stop, the darting towards the guardrail on exits, the swerving around in the lane position based on small changes in road type, markings, or exit/entry ramps, the abrupt speed-up when changing lanes, etc.

Through it's actions and inactions, Autopilot does not make passengers feel confident in it, and Tesla really needs to fix that. I do think it's possible with further refinements to the algorithms, but it needs to include human factors teams that understand how system behaviors lead to user confidence. I could make a list of some changes that would help, if I felt like they would improve the implementation. But anytime Tesla talks about complaints they say they don't need input -- they know what needs improving, but then don't do it. Here's a super simple one: When you override Autosteer by steering, the system should not "let go" all at once, but rather over a short period of time (just a fraction of second). The current system fights you and fights you and then let's go like an upset child. The causes a lurch, and the passenger feels it. No driver, regardless of skill, can use the wheel to disengage without the lurch. The software could easily make that better, and passengers won't feel like the driver and the car are not getting along.

I don't claim to be a perfect driver, but I do try to give a nice smooth, safe ride that might rival that of a good car service. A passenger should be able to read a book or use their phone without feeling nervous or in any kind of danger.

She actually has a sliding scale that costs me a glass of wine for a small startling event (like darting towards a guardrail) to a whole bottle for something major (like a big phantom braking event on a highway in traffic -- there was also some swearing for that one).

You might laugh, but Tesla is going to lose new sales and replacement/upgrade sales if people don't like being a passenger in the car. Most car buying decisions need some level of spouse approval.

 

[Babaron]

I own both a 2014 AP1 and a 2019 AP 2.5 with FSD.

I agree that the 2014 drives on auto pilot amazingly well using MobileEye. It’s only happened a couple of times but I have experienced phantom braking with the 2019.

I am also curious about whether or not phantom braking occurs with the Model 3 and also does it occur with model S with 3.0 hardware?