How to dampen road/wind noise?

[tm1v2]

I have the stock Pirelli PZ4. The road noise is a bit loud on the rough type asphalt. The car performs really well. I've put it into 4 wheel drifts, so I suppose they could have more grip, but that's a tradeoff. I've considered 18" wheels. What wheels did you get? I don't think I want any more road noise however....
The 18" is supposed to get better range. Does it make much / enough range difference. Also as far as cornering, don't you lose some with the bigger tires? I assumed a small tire / large wheel combo was best for cornering?

@Georgesb2 I think the only real performance benefit to bigger diameter wheels, is fitting bigger brakes inside. The 20" M3P wheel diameter is just for looks, it's actually worse for performance due to the weight. Some other car companies will at least make their big flashy performance wheels forged, but Tesla does not, they are super heavy and are literally a drag on performance, as well as at risk of damage.

Short sidewalls can certainly help with steering response, but tires can be built to be responsive even with taller sidewalls. I picked tires that reviews said were especially responsive, and I think it worked out well. This is the 3rd car I've downsized wheels on. The first time was winter wheels for an ICE car (I continued using its original wheels for summer), 2nd time was the year-round wheels for our Model S, see below.

18" is a tight squeeze over the M3P brakes though, especially the parking brakes in the rear. Some 18" wheels fit, like the ones I got which are in an M3P specific spec, but I can see why Tesla would not want to offer 18" as a factory fitment over these brakes. 19" is an easier fit though, and certainly a better tradeoff than 20" of looks vs practicality. There is really no reason for 20" with our brakes.

My goal for downsizing was to not risk cracked rims, pinch flats, etc. Our S P85 came with 245/35, very similar to M3P 235/35, and one of its wheels cracked just from driving down a very rough road. I had to argue very firmly with Tesla service just to get it replaced as a goodwill item. After that and another incident we downsized to 2" smaller diameter wheels (smaller Tesla OE wheels) and no more cracked wheels.

For the M3P, since apparently the regular Model 3 18" wheels don't fit over the brakes, I went with Titan7 T-S5 in 18x8.5" ET35. They are fully forged (not "rotary forged" which is just flow formed cast, which is fine tech but not the same as a true forged wheel), at the cheap end for true forged wheels. Honestly in 18" flow formed cast should be fine, but I wanted the extra strength from forging, and the price ($2k/set a year ago) was just low enough for me. Also Titan 7 offers specs meant exactly for this car, even machined for the "stepped lip," which many wheel brands don't bother with. There are other good brands that do too though.



For tires I went with Bridgestone Potenza Sport 245/45R18 300TW, in the same "max performance" class as the OE PZ4 tires. So 10mm wider tires, mounted onto 0.5" narrower wheels. 245mm on 8.5" wide wheels is a 100% normal fitment, that's what our Model S came with, and what my last ICE car came with too. Whereas the M3P OE fitment of 235mm on 9" wide wheels is visibly stretched...I don't understand why Tesla chose it.

First thing I noticed, even more than I expected, was how the steering felt lighter and more responsive. I chalk that up to the wheels being much much lighter. I never weighed either wheel, I wasn't really concerned about that, but having carried each wheel+tire combo I can tell you the new setup is significantly lighter. Quick back-and-forth steering in tight twisty roads just feels easier now, almost as if the power steering was slightly struggling before.

Next thing I noticed is these tires (no foam liner, unlike Tesla OE tires) are a little louder when cruising around. Not a huge difference and not too loud for me, I've had much louder performance tires on past cars, but they are not as quiet cruising on the highway as the PZ4 were. Even at local road speeds I can tell they are louder. I haven't found them objectionable, nor has my wife, but they aren't as quiet as the PZ4.

Once the tires wore in, my first grip comparisons were in the wet, and I swore they felt like they gripped as good in the wet (damp, not deep standing water!) as the OE PZ4 did in the dry. In the dry they were even better. Also, the squealing that had mildly annoyed me with the PZ4 is gone with these tires. (I've not had any issues with hydroplaning with either tire, though I take it easy through anything that looks deep.) These tires are 10mm wider as mentioned, but that is a pretty small width change, I think they just perform better overall.

Finally, efficiency. I was worried I'd lose efficiency, because my new wheels don't look aerodynamic at all, and Tesla tends to pick efficient tires as OE tires, so my tire choice could be worse too. Well, not to worry! I definitely gained efficiency. I can cruise at 72-73mph on the highway, climate control on of course, and match the car's EPA rating (if flat highway, no rain or big winds, etc). Efficiency seemed to go up for long drives on winding rural roads too, again much easier to meet the car's EPA rating. However I don't want to put firm numbers on the improvement, because my driving is NOT very consistent, and I never attempted any kind of controlled test.

Why is this setup more efficient? My best guess is twofold:
1) The significantly lighter overall wheel+tire weight.
2) Taller sidewall / smaller diameter wheel probably helps aerodynamics.

Are the tires I chose more efficient too? It's possible, but I am doubtful. I credit these tires for the improved grip, but not for the improved efficiency. Tires certainly matter for efficiency too! Just in this particular case, I credit the wheels.



A few more thoughts: People here who are into drag racing have shown consistent if small improvements from switching their M3P to (lighter) 18" wheels (from 20"). I'm not really into that and I couldn't "feel" any acceleration difference, but apparently if you measure it, there is a small improvement in 0-60, 1/4 mile, etc. Not drastic but it's consistent when isolated from other factors. (Battery temp, battery SoC, etc are bigger factors.)

I couldn't feel any loss of steering response from the change, and that is something I care about (more than 0-60). I did pick a tire (Potenza Sport) that reviews said was particularly good for steering response though, with sturdy-feeling sidewalls. In my experience changing wheel sizes on other cars, if you downsize with a tire that's a little mushy, then the taller sidewall can really accentuate it, so pairing the right tire and wheel together is important.

Also, the Model 3 has kind of rubbery steering from the factory (at least for the 2021's that I've driven - tested 2 and bought 1). I have since upgraded my suspension including some bushing upgrades (long after the wheel+tire change), and I suspect I could now make out more subtle changes in steering response. But I have not put my original wheels back on for comparison.

 

[Georgesb2]

@Georgesb2 I think the only real performance benefit to bigger diameter wheels, is fitting bigger brakes inside. The 20" M3P wheel diameter is just for looks, it's actually worse for performance due to the weight. Some other car companies will at least make their big flashy performance wheels forged, but Tesla does not, they are super heavy and are literally a drag on performance, as well as at risk of damage.

Short sidewalls can certainly help with steering response, but tires can be built to be responsive even with taller sidewalls. I picked tires that reviews said were especially responsive, and I think it worked out well. This is the 3rd car I've downsized wheels on. The first time was winter wheels for an ICE car (I continued using its original wheels for summer), 2nd time was the year-round wheels for our Model S, see below.

18" is a tight squeeze over the M3P brakes though, especially the parking brakes in the rear. Some 18" wheels fit, like the ones I got which are in an M3P specific spec, but I can see why Tesla would not want to offer 18" as a factory fitment over these brakes. 19" is an easier fit though, and certainly a better tradeoff than 20" of looks vs practicality. There is really no reason for 20" with our brakes.

My goal for downsizing was to not risk cracked rims, pinch flats, etc. Our S P85 came with 245/35, very similar to M3P 235/35, and one of its wheels cracked just from driving down a very rough road. I had to argue very firmly with Tesla service just to get it replaced as a goodwill item. After that and another incident we downsized to 2" smaller diameter wheels (smaller Tesla OE wheels) and no more cracked wheels.

For the M3P, since apparently the regular Model 3 18" wheels don't fit over the brakes, I went with Titan7 T-S5 in 18x8.5" ET35. They are fully forged (not "rotary forged" which is just flow formed cast, which is fine tech but not the same as a true forged wheel), at the cheap end for true forged wheels. Honestly in 18" flow formed cast should be fine, but I wanted the extra strength from forging, and the price ($2k/set a year ago) was just low enough for me. Also Titan 7 offers specs meant exactly for this car, even machined for the "stepped lip," which many wheel brands don't bother with. There are other good brands that do too though.



For tires I went with Bridgestone Potenza Sport 245/45R18 300TW, in the same "max performance" class as the OE PZ4 tires. So 10mm wider tires, mounted onto 0.5" narrower wheels. 245mm on 8.5" wide wheels is a 100% normal fitment, that's what our Model S came with, and what my last ICE car came with too. Whereas the M3P OE fitment of 235mm on 9" wide wheels is visibly stretched...I don't understand why Tesla chose it.

First thing I noticed, even more than I expected, was how the steering felt lighter and more responsive. I chalk that up to the wheels being much much lighter. I never weighed either wheel, I wasn't really concerned about that, but having carried each wheel+tire combo I can tell you the new setup is significantly lighter. Quick back-and-forth steering in tight twisty roads just feels easier now, almost as if the power steering was slightly struggling before.

Next thing I noticed is these tires (no foam liner, unlike Tesla OE tires) are a little louder when cruising around. Not a huge difference and not too loud for me, I've had much louder performance tires on past cars, but they are not as quiet cruising on the highway as the PZ4 were. Even at local road speeds I can tell they are louder. I haven't found them objectionable, nor has my wife, but they aren't as quiet as the PZ4.

Once the tires wore in, my first grip comparisons were in the wet, and I swore they felt like they gripped as good in the wet (damp, not deep standing water!) as the OE PZ4 did in the dry. In the dry they were even better. Also, the squealing that had mildly annoyed me with the PZ4 is gone with these tires. (I've not had any issues with hydroplaning with either tire, though I take it easy through anything that looks deep.) These tires are 10mm wider as mentioned, but that is a pretty small width change, I think they just perform better overall.

Finally, efficiency. I was worried I'd lose efficiency, because my new wheels don't look aerodynamic at all, and Tesla tends to pick efficient tires as OE tires, so my tire choice could be worse too. Well, not to worry! I definitely gained efficiency. I can cruise at 72-73mph on the highway, climate control on of course, and match the car's EPA rating (if flat highway, no rain or big winds, etc). Efficiency seemed to go up for long drives on winding rural roads too, again much easier to meet the car's EPA rating. However I don't want to put firm numbers on the improvement, because my driving is NOT very consistent, and I never attempted any kind of controlled test.

Why is this setup more efficient? My best guess is twofold:
1) The significantly lighter overall wheel+tire weight.
2) Taller sidewall / smaller diameter wheel probably helps aerodynamics.

Are the tires I chose more efficient too? It's possible, but I am doubtful. I credit these tires for the improved grip, but not for the improved efficiency. Tires certainly matter for efficiency too! Just in this particular case, I credit the wheels.



A few more thoughts: People here who are into drag racing have shown consistent if small improvements from switching their M3P to (lighter) 18" wheels (from 20"). I'm not really into that and I couldn't "feel" any acceleration difference, but apparently if you measure it, there is a small improvement in 0-60, 1/4 mile, etc. Not drastic but it's consistent when isolated from other factors. (Battery temp, battery SoC, etc are bigger factors.)

I couldn't feel any loss of steering response from the change, and that is something I care about (more than 0-60). I did pick a tire (Potenza Sport) that reviews said was particularly good for steering response though, with sturdy-feeling sidewalls. In my experience changing wheel sizes on other cars, if you downsize with a tire that's a little mushy, then the taller sidewall can really accentuate it, so pairing the right tire and wheel together is important.

Also, the Model 3 has kind of rubbery steering from the factory (at least for the 2021's that I've driven - tested 2 and bought 1). I have since upgraded my suspension including some bushing upgrades (long after the wheel+tire change), and I suspect I could now make out more subtle changes in steering response. But I have not put my original wheels back on for comparison.

Your information sharing is wonderful and very helpful! Thank you very much!

I'm quite impressed that a shorter diameter wheel/tire combo, handles as well as taller. This is surprising and useful information.
You stated: “My goal for downsizing was to not risk cracked rims, pinch flats, etc”
I have yet to feel at risk, but I'm sure the day may come.
Speaking of fitting larger brakes. That would be nice. I find the car gets going so quick, more responsive brakes would be nice but not a necessity for me.
I agree, the OEM M3P look “visibly stretched”.
Gaining cruising efficiency is highly attractive! That might, in some cases, justify significant expense all by iteself.....

But, firstly, to qualify myself and my needs. I don't put the car on a track. I do like speed and handling and the22 M3P is incredible to me. I have some roads where I like to push the car some and I like acceleration too. The car's acceleration disappoints at higher speeds though. I found a huge and perceptible difference in acceleration from battery temperature monitoring and control, plus state of charge (as you've stated already). I understand that the tires would help even more, but what percentage improvement? Is there a law of diminishing return on investment?
There are two things I want to avoid as best I can. "Frivolous" spending and more noise. I'm extremely sensitive to noise and I'm looking into noise reduction, especially road noise, and I've done a complete noise reduction system on another noisy car we own. And I'm becoming every more sensitive to spending with the macro economic madness, intentionally making most of us more poor. Considering I'm already deep into this car at $60K plus and increase in car insurance plus expenditures on goodies and modifications. I'm trying really hard to resist more expenditures. It's difficult. I found the seats unbearable so I spent money, experimented a lot, and now finally I have completely rebuilt the seats to my satisfaction. That I consider a very, very worthwhile investment. Pain isn't good when it's from the car seats.

Funny, I've thrown the car about fairly aggressively in track mode on very squirrelly roads and I very rarely hear any squeal, even when sliding a bit. So, tire squeal isn't an issue for me. Not yet anyway. The improved grip is attractive and surprising. When I throw the car hard into turns plus accelerate hard, the tires do let go of the road and I drift sideways towards the outside of the turn. That makes me a little nervous because I don't know yet how predictable that drift is and it's a 4 wheel drift that I'm not at all used to. I don't have instincts for an all wheel drive car. I used to throw a rear wheel drive car into drifts all the time, but this is a world of difference. If I look to change to “better” wheels and tires, that's a fairly large outlay in cash. I can't say that the improvement would be worth it for me and my situation. But if you are riding on rough roads a lot and risk tire / wheel damage, then I'd say you are “forced” into a change. If I could get a setup used, I might consider that.

I haven't noticed a “rubbery” feeling in the steering. I have a 2022 M3P. It could be I've never driven a tighter car before this. So it could be me.

Thank you again, very good information....

 

[tm1v2]

Your information sharing is wonderful and very helpful! Thank you very much!

I'm quite impressed that a shorter diameter wheel/tire combo, handles as well as taller. This is surprising and useful information.
You stated: “My goal for downsizing was to not risk cracked rims, pinch flats, etc”
I have yet to feel at risk, but I'm sure the day may come.
Speaking of fitting larger brakes. That would be nice. I find the car gets going so quick, more responsive brakes would be nice but not a necessity for me.
I agree, the OEM M3P look “visibly stretched”.
Gaining cruising efficiency is highly attractive! That might, in some cases, justify significant expense all by iteself.....

But, firstly, to qualify myself and my needs. I don't put the car on a track. I do like speed and handling and the22 M3P is incredible to me. I have some roads where I like to push the car some and I like acceleration too. The car's acceleration disappoints at higher speeds though. I found a huge and perceptible difference in acceleration from battery temperature monitoring and control, plus state of charge (as you've stated already). I understand that the tires would help even more, but what percentage improvement? Is there a law of diminishing return on investment?
There are two things I want to avoid as best I can. "Frivolous" spending and more noise. I'm extremely sensitive to noise and I'm looking into noise reduction, especially road noise, and I've done a complete noise reduction system on another noisy car we own. And I'm becoming every more sensitive to spending with the macro economic madness, intentionally making most of us more poor. Considering I'm already deep into this car at $60K plus and increase in car insurance plus expenditures on goodies and modifications. I'm trying really hard to resist more expenditures. It's difficult. I found the seats unbearable so I spent money, experimented a lot, and now finally I have completely rebuilt the seats to my satisfaction. That I consider a very, very worthwhile investment. Pain isn't good when it's from the car seats.

Funny, I've thrown the car about fairly aggressively in track mode on very squirrelly roads and I very rarely hear any squeal, even when sliding a bit. So, tire squeal isn't an issue for me. Not yet anyway. The improved grip is attractive and surprising. When I throw the car hard into turns plus accelerate hard, the tires do let go of the road and I drift sideways towards the outside of the turn. That makes me a little nervous because I don't know yet how predictable that drift is and it's a 4 wheel drift that I'm not at all used to. I don't have instincts for an all wheel drive car. I used to throw a rear wheel drive car into drifts all the time, but this is a world of difference. If I look to change to “better” wheels and tires, that's a fairly large outlay in cash. I can't say that the improvement would be worth it for me and my situation. But if you are riding on rough roads a lot and risk tire / wheel damage, then I'd say you are “forced” into a change. If I could get a setup used, I might consider that.

I haven't noticed a “rubbery” feeling in the steering. I have a 2022 M3P. It could be I've never driven a tighter car before this. So it could be me.

Thank you again, very good information....

@Georgesb2 In my experience, if quietness is a top priority then Tesla OEM tires are always good bets in their respective categories.

Tesla OE tires always have a foam liner (as you may know). I've never used the same tire with and without a foam liner. Would a regular PZ4 in 18" (no foam liner) be subjectively as quiet as the Tesla spec 20" version (with foam liner)? I don't know. Maybe, but maybe not. There ARE quiet tires out there without foam liners, so I don't think it's essential at all, but Tesla definitely pays attention to noise level in their tire selection, and they always spec a foam liner.

So let's say you get 18x8.5" wheels and you want summer performance tires comparable to the PZ4, but you don't want to risk the regular PZ4 without foam liner. Well, you may be in luck! While Tesla never sells the Model 3 with 18" summer tires here in the US, apparently they do in some other countries,. The tire they use is a 235/45R18 Michelin Pilot Sport 4 (not 4S!) "T0 Acoustic" and it is sold in the US.

https://www.discounttire.com/buy-tires/michelin-pilot-sport-4-acoustic/p/89134

https://www.tirerack.com/tires/tire...tireModel=Pilot+Sport+4&partnum=345YR8PS4XLAC

I have not used it, but that would be my top guess / top recommendation for quietest 18" Model 3 sized summer performance tire. It is NOT going to be the VERY best performing tire in that category, it's based on the regular "Pilot Sport 4" whereas the "4S" which is Michelin's top street-focused tire, but the Pilot Sport 4 is still officially in that same category and I am confident it's a very solid performing tire in its own right. If you're happy with the PZ4 I bet you would be happy with the Pilot Sport 4 as well.

One word of warning though, I believe Michelin tends to err towards slightly softer sidewalls on their street performance tires. In other words, my guess (totally a guess) is those Pilot Sport 4, or even the 4S, would have a slightly smoother ride but softer steering response than my Potenza Sport. Whether that's good or bad is completely personal preference. They'll still respond like legit performance tires of course, nothing like the mushiness of the Primacy MXM4 that comes on base model Tesla's in the US.

All that said, it sounds like your roads are in consistently better condition than mine, and you don't have the same need to downsize. I haven't been to your part of Florida, but from what I remember of south Florida the roads were all in good condition (compared to anywhere I've lived) and I wouldn't worry about cracking rims there. I think the 20" Uberturbine wheels look great on this car, almost like concept car wheels, the only reason I ditched them was we knew they aren't practical for us and the places we drive (from the S P85 cracked wheel incident).

No squealing with your PZ4...I wonder if that might be very temperature-dependent for the PZ4? It was chilly here by the time we got our M3P last fall, I never used the PZ4 in warmer weather. I'm well aware not to use summer tires in freezing weather, it doesn't freeze here, but it does get cold, and most of my grip evaluations were done around empty highway ramps in the middle of the night. I wouldn't be surprised if the PZ4 stacks up much better vs its competition in warm weather than it does in chilly weather. Cold performance (above freezing!) matters a lot to me though, so that's still a knock against the PZ4 for me, but maybe it's a better tire for Florida!

My sporty car background is with AWD Subarus. My last one (last ICE car) was an STI hatchback that I drove everywhere from racetrack to mountain blizzards (using separate summer and winter tires/wheels of course). Agreed AWD is a big difference from RWD! Only RWD car I've owned is our S P85, but that's a big numb cruiser with non-defeatable nannies. It can get around turns shocklingly well when fitted with good tires, thanks to great weight distribution and RWD power, plus its nannies give more leeway than the Model 3 (not counting Track Mode), but I have not tried to learn real RWD car control with it, the Model S is not the car for that.

In my experience so far M3P Track Mode "Handling Bias" slider makes a huge difference in how power delivery feels. Set it to 50/50 and it really feels like 50/50 ICE AWD. Set it front biased and it feels like front-biased AWD (e.g. Haldex VWs or low-end automatic Subarus). Set it to a heavy rear bias and it really shows, it becomes real easy to rotate with power and kick the tail out. I'm no dry pavement drifter though, I've done lots of hooning around in the snow, but when I slide on dry or wet pavement I'm usually trying to stop the slide ASAP.

I will say the M3P seems easy to control in a slide, and I haven't encountered any scary handling tendencies, except for the stock dampers losing all control of the car on very bumpy twisty roads which I already knew from my test drive. (I drive on such roads frequently, so I upgraded the dampers / "coilovers" to fix that.) The day I got my 18" wheels and tires mounted, I forgot that brand new tires are greasy/slippery, and chucked it into a nice tight ramp wanting to test its grip, in Track Mode with handling bias set to something rear biased. Whoops! Got the back sliding out real good. Turned out to be no problem, countersteering and then quickly unwinding was super easy with the fast steering and small sporty steering wheel. The car behaved very predictably, felt completely intuitive to bring under control. This was on stock suspension still, on smooth pavement. (And with nobody and nothing around. When I push a car that hard, it's only in a place and time where I have some room to recover, and where if I really **** up I still won't hit anyone or damage anything besides myself and my own car.)

Edit: As for rubbery steering, yup it's all relative! I've driven a decent range of sporty cars over the years. For sure the Model 3 steering is better than most mainstream cars. On my Subaru STI I upgraded a lot of bushings and mounts, and upgraded to a quick ratio steering rack (like the Model 3 comes with from the factory), which all helped improve steering response. On my Model 3 I've upgraded the dampers+springs and several bushings, so the steering is a lot more responsive now under high cornering forces. In normal daily driving it's not much different though, was always fine there.

 

[Georgesb2]

@Georgesb2 In my experience, if quietness is a top priority then Tesla OEM tires are always good bets in their respective categories.

Tesla OE tires always have a foam liner (as you may know). I've never used the same tire with and without a foam liner. Would a regular PZ4 in 18" (no foam liner) be subjectively as quiet as the Tesla spec 20" version (with foam liner)? I don't know. Maybe, but maybe not. There ARE quiet tires out there without foam liners, so I don't think it's essential at all, but Tesla definitely pays attention to noise level in their tire selection, and they always spec a foam liner.

So let's say you get 18x8.5" wheels and you want summer performance tires comparable to the PZ4, but you don't want to risk the regular PZ4 without foam liner. Well, you may be in luck! While Tesla never sells the Model 3 with 18" summer tires here in the US, apparently they do in some other countries,. The tire they use is a 235/45R18 Michelin Pilot Sport 4 (not 4S!) "T0 Acoustic" and it is sold in the US.

https://www.discounttire.com/buy-tires/michelin-pilot-sport-4-acoustic/p/89134

https://www.tirerack.com/tires/tire...tireModel=Pilot+Sport+4&partnum=345YR8PS4XLAC

I have not used it, but that would be my top guess / top recommendation for quietest 18" Model 3 sized summer performance tire. It is NOT going to be the VERY best performing tire in that category, it's based on the regular "Pilot Sport 4" whereas the "4S" which is Michelin's top street-focused tire, but the Pilot Sport 4 is still officially in that same category and I am confident it's a very solid performing tire in its own right. If you're happy with the PZ4 I bet you would be happy with the Pilot Sport 4 as well.

One word of warning though, I believe Michelin tends to err towards slightly softer sidewalls on their street performance tires. In other words, my guess (totally a guess) is those Pilot Sport 4, or even the 4S, would have a slightly smoother ride but softer steering response than my Potenza Sport. Whether that's good or bad is completely personal preference. They'll still respond like legit performance tires of course, nothing like the mushiness of the Primacy MXM4 that comes on base model Tesla's in the US.

All that said, it sounds like your roads are in consistently better condition than mine, and you don't have the same need to downsize. I haven't been to your part of Florida, but from what I remember of south Florida the roads were all in good condition (compared to anywhere I've lived) and I wouldn't worry about cracking rims there. I think the 20" Uberturbine wheels look great on this car, almost like concept car wheels, the only reason I ditched them was we knew they aren't practical for us and the places we drive (from the S P85 cracked wheel incident).

No squealing with your PZ4...I wonder if that might be very temperature-dependent for the PZ4? It was chilly here by the time we got our M3P last fall, I never used the PZ4 in warmer weather. I'm well aware not to use summer tires in freezing weather, it doesn't freeze here, but it does get cold, and most of my grip evaluations were done around empty highway ramps in the middle of the night. I wouldn't be surprised if the PZ4 stacks up much better vs its competition in warm weather than it does in chilly weather. Cold performance (above freezing!) matters a lot to me though, so that's still a knock against the PZ4 for me, but maybe it's a better tire for Florida!

My sporty car background is with AWD Subarus. My last one (last ICE car) was an STI hatchback that I drove everywhere from racetrack to mountain blizzards (using separate summer and winter tires/wheels of course). Agreed AWD is a big difference from RWD! Only RWD car I've owned is our S P85, but that's a big numb cruiser with non-defeatable nannies. It can get around turns shocklingly well when fitted with good tires, thanks to great weight distribution and RWD power, plus its nannies give more leeway than the Model 3 (not counting Track Mode), but I have not tried to learn real RWD car control with it, the Model S is not the car for that.

In my experience so far M3P Track Mode "Handling Bias" slider makes a huge difference in how power delivery feels. Set it to 50/50 and it really feels like 50/50 ICE AWD. Set it front biased and it feels like front-biased AWD (e.g. Haldex VWs or low-end automatic Subarus). Set it to a heavy rear bias and it really shows, it becomes real easy to rotate with power and kick the tail out. I'm no dry pavement drifter though, I've done lots of hooning around in the snow, but when I slide on dry or wet pavement I'm usually trying to stop the slide ASAP.

I will say the M3P seems easy to control in a slide, and I haven't encountered any scary handling tendencies, except for the stock dampers losing all control of the car on very bumpy twisty roads which I already knew from my test drive. (I drive on such roads frequently, so I upgraded the dampers / "coilovers" to fix that.) The day I got my 18" wheels and tires mounted, I forgot that brand new tires are greasy/slippery, and chucked it into a nice tight ramp wanting to test its grip, in Track Mode with handling bias set to something rear biased. Whoops! Got the back sliding out real good. Turned out to be no problem, countersteering and then quickly unwinding was super easy with the fast steering and small sporty steering wheel. The car behaved very predictably, felt completely intuitive to bring under control. This was on stock suspension still, on smooth pavement. (And with nobody and nothing around. When I push a car that hard, it's only in a place and time where I have some room to recover, and where if I really **** up I still won't hit anyone or damage anything besides myself and my own car.)

Edit: As for rubbery steering, yup it's all relative! I've driven a decent range of sporty cars over the years. For sure the Model 3 steering is better than most mainstream cars. On my Subaru STI I upgraded a lot of bushings and mounts, and upgraded to a quick ratio steering rack (like the Model 3 comes with from the factory), which all helped improve steering response. On my Model 3 I've upgraded the dampers+springs and several bushings, so the steering is a lot more responsive now under high cornering forces. In normal daily driving it's not much different though, was always fine there.

Thanks for that response.

Years ago I had a 280 Z, I think that was 1976. I would power slide or drift turns all the time. I modified the front suspension to compensate the rear kickout by understeer in the front suspension. This was before the internet and I read it in a magazine. I got so used to it, and did it so darn often, that the transition to the Tesla M3P, having AWD, computer controls, and so weight-balanced and so low-slung, it just amazes me every turn! It's freaky and sometimes feels I'm magnetically pulled down and on tracks as well. Good to know it behaves. In the old days, many tires would just keep letting go of the road, once sliding began. Even very expensive street/race tires were better but they also began to let go but somewhat less.

For now, I think I'll stick to what I've got. It's reasonably quiet and your info adds to that. If I have any money, I'll keep buying low while this market tanks.

I've been thinking of migrating to the 18” but I simply cannot justify. Not at this time anyway.

I have no winter conditions and It's extremely rare to see temps below 60F. There is rain to deal with however. I haven't felt any float from rain as yet. Yes, the roads around here are generally very good, compared to what others in other states say. Another possible factor with no tire squeal is the road composition. I haven't pushed it hard on different road types of asphalt and there seems to be a lot of differences.

I haven't shifted Track Mode bias at all.
I know in my old Z car, it was imperative to have understeer in the front end to power steer by sliding, I think it's called drifting. Without understeer, I'm concerned if I bias to the rear and it breaks loose that I'll then oversteer the turns and get into real serious trouble.

Thanks again,
George

 

[SteelClouds]

Your information sharing is wonderful and very helpful! Thank you very much!

I'm quite impressed that a shorter diameter wheel/tire combo, handles as well as taller. This is surprising and useful information.
You stated: “My goal for downsizing was to not risk cracked rims, pinch flats, etc”
I have yet to feel at risk, but I'm sure the day may come.
Speaking of fitting larger brakes. That would be nice. I find the car gets going so quick, more responsive brakes would be nice but not a necessity for me.
I agree, the OEM M3P look “visibly stretched”.
Gaining cruising efficiency is highly attractive! That might, in some cases, justify significant expense all by iteself.....

But, firstly, to qualify myself and my needs. I don't put the car on a track. I do like speed and handling and the22 M3P is incredible to me. I have some roads where I like to push the car some and I like acceleration too. The car's acceleration disappoints at higher speeds though. I found a huge and perceptible difference in acceleration from battery temperature monitoring and control, plus state of charge (as you've stated already). I understand that the tires would help even more, but what percentage improvement? Is there a law of diminishing return on investment?
There are two things I want to avoid as best I can. "Frivolous" spending and more noise. I'm extremely sensitive to noise and I'm looking into noise reduction, especially road noise, and I've done a complete noise reduction system on another noisy car we own. And I'm becoming every more sensitive to spending with the macro economic madness, intentionally making most of us more poor. Considering I'm already deep into this car at $60K plus and increase in car insurance plus expenditures on goodies and modifications. I'm trying really hard to resist more expenditures. It's difficult. I found the seats unbearable so I spent money, experimented a lot, and now finally I have completely rebuilt the seats to my satisfaction. That I consider a very, very worthwhile investment. Pain isn't good when it's from the car seats.

Funny, I've thrown the car about fairly aggressively in track mode on very squirrelly roads and I very rarely hear any squeal, even when sliding a bit. So, tire squeal isn't an issue for me. Not yet anyway. The improved grip is attractive and surprising. When I throw the car hard into turns plus accelerate hard, the tires do let go of the road and I drift sideways towards the outside of the turn. That makes me a little nervous because I don't know yet how predictable that drift is and it's a 4 wheel drift that I'm not at all used to. I don't have instincts for an all wheel drive car. I used to throw a rear wheel drive car into drifts all the time, but this is a world of difference. If I look to change to “better” wheels and tires, that's a fairly large outlay in cash. I can't say that the improvement would be worth it for me and my situation. But if you are riding on rough roads a lot and risk tire / wheel damage, then I'd say you are “forced” into a change. If I could get a setup used, I might consider that.

I haven't noticed a “rubbery” feeling in the steering. I have a 2022 M3P. It could be I've never driven a tighter car before this. So it could be me.

Thank you again, very good information....

I’m curious about the work for the seats. I actually canceled my Y order after renting a Y and hating the seats compared to my 2019 M3

 

[Georgesb2]

I’m curious about the work for the seats. I actually canceled my Y order after renting a Y and hating the seats compared to my 2019 M3

What I did was do the work of modifying my seats myself. I found nothing on the aftermarket to help me.
I tried every seat modification I could think of. I bought seat frames and many seat bottoms as well as lots of foam blocks to experiment with.

Through the process I learned a great deal and ended up with great front seats!

The Tesla seats use a very soft and rather thin foam cushion bottom. The metal seat base or frame is somewhat small in width as well. The seat base fits low into the seat frame.

What the result is siting in a stock Tesla: Anyone with a larger frame, wider hip bones, or larger legs, and I think most people over 200 lbs and most people over 6 ft tall and I would think many women, they won't fit! The width of the back of the bottom is only about 11 inches. If you are at all wider, you will feel the metal base. You think it's the wings / bolsters, but it's the metal that we are hitting. Additionally, I learned that due to the very soft foam in the bottom cushion, there's zero "suspension". So every jolt and every bump goes through the body. If you have any spine issues whatsoever, it will be aggravated and maybe even new issues developed. You will also find that most Tesla models have a rough ride. But it's largely solved by seat modification, I learned.

I self-taught myself to remove the stock Tesla foam and replace it with a more dense seat cushion foam. I chose to get the foam used from other car manufacturers. I could not cut a foam the correct way because these are made in a mold.
I learned how to "sew" the faux leather onto the replacement seat foam. I also add dense foam blocks between the seat cushion and the seat "springs". The stock springs being totally useless as they don't flex. In the case of the driver's seat, I moved the seat sensor from the stock foam to the replacement foam.

Additionally, I bent the seat headrest backwards and spaced it upwards a bit.

So everything looks totally stock and everything works as stock. The seat sensors work properly, the seat heaters work properly, etc.

Now I have a seat with true suspension, floating over bumps in the road that the car's suspension fails to handle.
I feel no jolts in my spine. The seat is more giving and forgiving. I no longer feel pressure from the bolsters / wings on my hip bones or the sides of my thigh bones.
I can now drive in the car for many hours, where before I didn't last more than 30 minutes.

I've had some feedback that some people are also annoyed by the upper seat back.
I plan to do some experiments on that as well to help others. I don't mind the seat back, but there's always room for improvements.

 

[SteelClouds]

Very interesting. My M3 seats are soft and fit well but not in the shoulders. Too narrow but I love it. At 195lbs, thick legs and wide shoulders, the seats in the Y were awful for me. Way too hard. They dug into my hamstrings vs the 3 which gives a bit more. I may buy a used seat play around myself now

 

[Georgesb2]

Very interesting. My M3 seats are soft and fit well but not in the shoulders. Too narrow but I love it. At 195lbs, thick legs and wide shoulders, the seats in the Y were awful for me. Way too hard. They dug into my hamstrings vs the 3 which gives a bit more. I may buy a used seat play around myself now

Absolutely, If you run into issues just ask away. It took me a lot of work. Many spare seat parts. And lots of experiments.
My suggestion to try for the back:
Begin with the simplest change possible.
Just pull the plastic off the back. Buy a foam block, cut to the size you think might work. I'd start with about 2" thick and larger square than the two metal pipes. Place the foam block between the stock foam of the upper seat and the metal pipes. this should have the effect of making the seat flatter and the sides, which are also metal in the upper, less confining. I haven't tried that yet...
When working with the seats, be cautious with the side air bag. I haven't had issues, but that's certainly some kind of danger.
I don't touch the wiring to the airbag and don't touch it in any way.
If adding the foam to the back doesn't work, I would then experiment with bending the two metal pipes. I read one guy did it and loved the change.
Also consider removal of the inflatable lower back bags. I removed them without cutting any wires or tubing. I simply moved it to the back instead of the front of the seat back yellow plastic. I found it allowed my hips to go back more fully into the seat back. That might necessitate the change I suggest to the upper part of the upper seat back and changes to the head rest as well.
A simple head rest change to the Model 3 /Y is to simply reverse it so it faces backwards.

 

[Occhis]

I virtually have no road noise in MY, I did put dense layers of foam (mat from a horse stall) that you can lay on top of the wheel wells if you remove your frunk and a few bolts, I just laid it on top. If you put butyl sheets and closed cell foam, it will help some but not as much as you think (I did that previously). As for this skid plate thing, I don't think the road noise comes from that area but more so wind noise from the roof. If you wanted to save $300+ dollars from getting that skid plate, maybe remove your stock plates and put sticky closed cell foam on top?

Do you have any pics of what you used and how it is installed? Does it interfere with the frunk insert?

 

[Happy Hippo]

I've installed the noise reduction kits, and I do have to say it stopped some of the wind noise, but in reality, the biggest positive impact to reduction in wind noise was the SC installing a new glass roof and windshield under warranty. Adjusting my hatch stops helped with boominess, but I found that 2 items that most helped overall with noise/boominess are the roof glass sunshade shade and Tesla the rear side storage compartment liners/covers. I don't miss having and unshaded glass roof, as some light still passes through, but sound doesn't bounce around the cabin any longer. Road noise that was coming out of the two wells on each side of the rear of the car seemed to be dampened, which helped considerably.

which glass sunroof shade did you buy? The Tesla one or a 3rd party one?

 

[Hiline]

I've installed the noise reduction kits, and I do have to say it stopped some of the wind noise, but in reality, the biggest positive impact to reduction in wind noise was the SC installing a new glass roof and windshield under warranty. Adjusting my hatch stops helped with boominess, but I found that 2 items that most helped overall with noise/boominess are the roof glass sunshade shade and Tesla the rear side storage compartment liners/covers. I don't miss having and unshaded glass roof, as some light still passes through, but sound doesn't bounce around the cabin any longer. Road noise that was coming out of the two wells on each side of the rear of the car seemed to be dampened, which helped considerably.

Interesting that the boominess is caused by the glass roof. Can you share what sunshades you got to improve the acoustics?

 

[cfbackrow]

So my wind noise has been getting worse...my friend noticed the roof liner/pillor above the passenger seat is hanging down about 1/2 inch and when he pushed it up the noise substantially improved. I have a service appointment this Friday hopefully they fix it.

 

[Happy Hippo]

So my wind noise has been getting worse...my friend noticed the roof liner/pillor above the passenger seat is hanging down about 1/2 inch and when he pushed it up the noise substantially improved. I have a service appointment this Friday hopefully they fix it.

Can you take a picture of o it please? I had wind noise on the passenger side rear door and the tech said it was normal but I do not hear it on the drivers side door.