How to sue Tesla over historical claims

[m5james]

I sued Tesla in small claims and won. Twice! You can too.

Seeing as you were warned I'd need this done in crayon, so here I am lol. I'm gonna start a Request Service ticket, but do I want it to be:

Service > Upgrades & Accessories > Infotainment Upgrade or should it be Service > Software & Autopilot > Software Update, Touchscreen, Feature Availability & Settings, Autopilot or Cruise Control Performance, Visual Display & Navigation, Cameras & Sensors or Other * Software and Autopilot.

After that I'm just going to say something like "I need an MCU2 update so that my paid FSD will work"? Then when they come to me with a price quote, I should reply with something like "It should be free as part of my purchase of the vehicle since it was advertised to have all the equipment needed for FSD to work"? That sound like a good start?

 

[gearchruncher]

Yep, that sounds great. Then when (if?) they deny it for free, send your request to [email protected] saying you were denied at the service center but still believe you are owed it (they will never respond, so what you say doesn't matter too much, but you can show the judge you tried).

 

[m5james]

Yep, that sounds great. Then when (if?) they deny it for free, send your request to [email protected] saying you were denied at the service center but still believe you are owed it (they will never respond, so what you say doesn't matter too much, but you can show the judge you tried).

Instead of getting a quote, I got this...suggestions for a reply? I'm OK going through the paces if I have to, but I work nights from 2:30-midnight so I'm not about to goto the TSC at that hour anyways...I'll need to reschedule if I should in fact go.

 

[gearchruncher]

Well, looks like they are taking the complaint that you aren't getting updates and want to diagnose this. That's them being reactive to your concern, so I don't see how you can avoid letting them look at the car.

 

[m5james]

Well, looks like they are taking the complaint that you aren't getting updates and want to diagnose this. That's them being reactive to your concern, so I don't see how you can avoid letting them look at the car.

I'm guessing they're gonna wanna charge me hourly to do whatever they wanna look at and/or tell me in person that I'll need MCU2...so now I need to find a way to get them to do this in writing instead.

 

[m5james]

Well, looks like they are taking the complaint that you aren't getting updates and want to diagnose this. That's them being reactive to your concern, so I don't see how you can avoid letting them look at the car.

Went back after my post and a quote appeared, so this is when I say "It should be free in order to get my paid subscription for FSD to work", yes?

 

[zoomer0056]

Went back after my post and a quote appeared, so this is when I say "It should be free in order to get my paid subscription for FSD to work", yes?

Not necessarily. Even for waranty work they attach a quote that is cleared when the work starts. I'm not sure how to proceed in your case.

 

[m5james]

Not necessarily. Even for waranty work they attach a quote that is cleared when the work starts. I'm not sure how to proceed in your case.

I expected the quote, I didn't expect they'd try to get me to come in beforehand, which I'm not doing regardless for multiple reasons. I can see where I can reply, I just wanna confirm with GearChruncher since he's taken all the steps I'm just starting.

 

[seenhear]

$500 in damages to sue for right there if you do the upgrade, and if you're already in court, you might as well make the argument about how Tesla's

Interesting that the hw3 computer is valued at only $500 here, but at $1000 if done as a standalone upgrade (e.g. for cars not requiring the MCU2 upgrade, e.g. early model3 I guess)

defective product led to safety recalls that led to MCU1 no longer functioning as originally sold and they cannot legally revert to old software, so they are liable for the MCU2 upgrade as well.

Is this safety recall you noted the EMMC daughterboard update they did a few years back? I did get that update. So what is the claim about reverting to old software if you have the emmc updated board? Sorry if you've covered this elsewhere.

 

[gearchruncher]

Is this safety recall you noted the EMMC daughterboard update they did a few years back? I did get that update. So what is the claim about reverting to old software if you have the emmc updated board?

NHTSA recall required a specific software that if the center screen goes out, the defrost turns on (and maybe other things). No matter if you have the EMMC upgrade or not, Tesla is required to have this functionality in the car, and that's only newer software. In my case, that software was newer than the versions that actually worked for me in areas such as navigation or voice commands. So Tesla can never take you back to earlier versions. This is likely even more true with the recall for AP just last month too. The reality is that when Tesla fixes a recall in software, they can never go back for a customer to fix what they broke in newer versions.

 

[gearchruncher]

I can see where I can reply, I just wanna confirm with GearChruncher since he's taken all the steps I'm just starting.

Yes, now that you have a quote, this is where I would respond and indicate that you have FSD and believe this should be free as your complaint is that FSD is not being updated and you understanding is that this is because your car does not have the MCU2 hardware that is required for FSD updates,

 

[seenhear]

The MCU doesn't do any of the FSD processing or logic, so there's not a real reason it wouldn't perform just fine with MCU1. The issue is that part of Tesla's FSD is a bunch of visualizations, which do need the MCU.

In the end the technical reasons don't matter though. If Tesla is not keeping the MCU1 cars up to date on software and features with the MCU2 cars, then you have a solid argument in court that the car did not have "all hardware needed for FSD capability." I really doubt Tesla will show up in a court and on the record say "Your honor, MCU1 absolutely has all the hardware needed for Tesla's FSD program, and any delays in providing the software for that platform are only temporary delays based on internal development priorities, but for sure it is coming." I assume any reasonable judge would then ask "by when?"

Having read around TMC forum's other topics related to this, it sounds like the logic from Tesla is that currently available FSD (for subscription or purchase) is the "beta" version and not complete yet; the intention being that once complete, FSD would work on MCU1, and hw3 computer would be provided if necessary. I'm hesitating bringing this to court if they come back with that argument. I have EAP (originally purchased new with car) not FSD.

I just want to subscribe to FSD, as $100/month for the months that I want it will last me longer than I probably will own the car, compared to $6000 to outright purchase FSD. But purchasing FSD for $6k apparently includes the necessary hw upgrades.

 

[seenhear]

I don't know if I need updated cameras, I just asked the SC that on that chance that it was an option and/or needed to get FSD back again since I only had it for like a month. At this point it sounds like I need MCU2 and then the updates snowball will start rolling down the hill again.

To a point I feel bad giving Lynnwood a hard time since they've has been nothing but nice to me and I've always gotten a loaner, from getting the halfshafts TSB done to a little over a month for my LDU replaced. I've got 143k, we average nearly 30k miles a year and I've got a warranty until Mar '26 so I'm hoping to keep my good graces there on the chance/hope a NEW battery replacement will be done before it expires. Do the people at the SC have knowledge that you took Tesla to small claims?

A couple of things for you:
1) AFAIK, the cameras are upgraded for free once you have the other necessary hardware and they then determine if your cameras require upgrading. This was stated to me from my SC EDIT - it was in service chat via app - recently when inquiring about all necessary upgrades for FSD-beta subscription. It wasn't 100% clear, but seemed like they were implying that once they install the hw3 and mcu2 hardware and firmware, they then can determine which cameras if any require updating, and would then schedule (or do if parts on hand) that replacement. I had prompted this response with "I thought hw3 cameras were free of charge if needed?" and they never denied the no cost part.

2) what you really probably need more than the hw2.5-hw3 cameras, is the hw3 computer, FYI. Seems like you've been focusing on the cameras in your comments, so not sure if you're aware that the hw3 computer is the primary/first concern.

3) off topic from FSD updates: can you tell me more about this halfshafts TSB work you had done? My rear halfshafts were making a knocking sound and all they did was lube them. This solved the knocking sound... for about 9 months. Now the knocking is starting to come back. Happy to take this response in a PM since it's off topic to this thread.

4) loaners are supposed to be supplied for anything that is under warranty. Drive unit replacements (I assume that's what LDU is?) are usually warranty work. Not sure about halfshafts. Mine were covered at the time under the ESD not original warranty, and ESD work does not include loaners, but they will if they have one available.

 

[m5james]

Yes, now that you have a quote, this is where I would respond and indicate that you have FSD and believe this should be free as your complaint is that FSD is not being updated and you understanding is that this is because your car does not have the MCU2 hardware that is required for FSD updates,

Sent this:

I've had FSD before since my vehicle has the hardware and subscription, yet I haven't received an update in almost a year and FSD only worked for a few weeks. With that said, I believe this should be free since FSD is not being updated and it's my understanding that nowadays MCU2 hardware is required for FSD updates.

 

[seenhear]

Yes, now that you have a quote, this is where I would respond and indicate that you have FSD and believe this should be free as your complaint is that FSD is not being updated and you understanding is that this is because your car does not have the MCU2 hardware that is required for FSD updates,

I had the mcu2/hw3 upgrade (quoted at $2250+$500 for fm tuner + tax = $3032 all in) scheduled for this morning, and last night sent a question asking if the cost could be waived, and quoted the webarchive's verbiage that all cars built at the time were FSD capable. I then re-scheduled my appointment for next week to give them time to respond. I'll report back if/when they do.

 

[gearchruncher]

I just want to subscribe to FSD, as $100/month for the months that I want it will last me longer than I probably will own the car, compared to $6000 to outright purchase FSD. But purchasing FSD for $6k apparently includes the necessary hw upgrades.

You're falling back into Tesla's trap here.

The car was sold as having "all hardware needed for FSD capability." When you go to subscribe to FSD capability (this is literally what it is called in the app when you subscribe) you are told that you need hardware to subscribe, and it's $1000.

Clearly the car did not have all HW needed for FSD capability. That's all you need to argue to get HW3.

Having read around TMC forum's other topics related to this, it sounds like the logic from Tesla is that currently available FSD (for subscription or purchase) is the "beta" version and not complete yet; the intention being that once complete, FSD would work on MCU1, and hw3 computer would be provided if necessary.

There is no logic from Tesla- because Tesla says nothing (even if you sue them). Any "logic" is just people on TMC defending them.
Every single AP function on a Tesla is in "beta" even cruise control. Given that, I would argue the "beta" moniker has no meaning anymore and a judge would ignore it. Espeically since Elon has tweeted that FSD is availible for all people that paid for it. If Tesla did try and argue that FSD is beta, and MCU1 will fully work once out of beta, I would ask "what date will that be?" and I'd imagine a judge not being thrilled with a company saying "someday" when they have your money for a product that was not sold as an investment.

The thing here is the cost to try any of these arguments in court is near zero. Don't litigate against yourself in your own mind. Just take Tesla to court and see what they say (nothing) and see if the Judge finds your position persuasive.

 

[cmwagner75DX]

My recent service experience 12/2023-1/2024

Summary: In my opinion as a consumer and Beta Tester, MCU1 isolated me from receiving ANY SW updates (16' Model X 75D, w/FSD, HW3 Cameras) but as soon as the paid Infotainment "upgrade" was done, I received a SW update as well as a Navigation update. Service Centers, as well as their advisors are lazy and least helpful as possible as they only address the 'original customer concern' once brought in...

Story Time: I had taken my recently purchased, 16' MX 75D in for emergency services due to the PTC Coolant heater failure, see BMS ERROR CODES.

I had informed the advisor I wanted to purchase the MCU2 infotainment upgrade because I wanted it to get the most out of my FSD - city street AP features.

A few Tesla employees came over to say "there are 'few' legacy vehicles on the road that have the ability or required SW version to have city steering." and they proceeded to inform me that my car was Up to Date.

Fast Forward past the 2 service tickets I had to do, the Coolant Heater was replaced (and since nobody is going to turn down money) and they performed the MCU2. I log on to the app and immediately notice I'm going from this,

to this!!!

They then tried to charge me $2250 for the upgrade but I showed them https://www.tesla.com/support/infotainment. I was simply confused as to why they wanted the full price if I already have HW3 cameras and FSD computer...

I'm under the impression that Elon's business theory and visionary promise is that all cars equipped with Auto Pilot Computers should always be on par with the latest hardware and software requirements to get the consumer what they paid for. In hand with that the safety that comes with revised or updated HW/SW changes is a no brainer...

End of rant: I pick the car up, excited and smiling as the earlier mentioned employees that told me MCU1 and MCU2 makes no difference, are saying "you'll have a whole new experience NOW, with city steering now available." The SC is closing, and I have a 60min drive ahead of me to get home. The SW update is done but the Nav Maps update is still installing. I go into service mode to confirm historical errors are not present and see some odd errors..

I'm thinking maybe, the cameras need time to calibrate? Maybe the progress bar doesn't fill dynamically as the calibration symbol wasn't moving..

 

[cmwagner75DX]

So here I am with a bricked FSD car I was eagerly waiting for, trying to reference others similar issues here, still not getting the "NEW EXPERIENCE" of the SW features.. Paid a pretty hefty premium for the MCU2 upgrade and the PTC heater, just to wait 11 days before I could be seen at the SC.

What's more frustrating is that ALL of the "safety" features weren't available. I was literally driving a car that was powered by a battery. I'm sure if I had gotten in a wreck or accident, Tesla would have not taken any responsibility, nor would I have been able to prove anything. None of the cameras were recording, cruise control didn't even work, usb would fail to format, even the auto highbeams and windshield wipers were inoperable.

I'm needing to go back yet again because my air compressor finally decided to die due to a leak in the suspension... Many will say why not get a newer model tesla, but this is beyond replacing a older car with newer, better, but have same issues...

 

[dbldwn02]

Well, I'm starting the process.

1st step, documentation...done
2nd step, resolutions... done (thanks ChatGPT)...now I wait a few weeks
3rd step, small claims...I'll check back with you all in a month or two.

Dear Tesla Customer Service Team,

Subject: Request for Complimentary MCU2 Hardware Upgrade

I am writing this letter to express my deep dissatisfaction and frustration with the recent notification from Tesla, demanding a payment of $2,434.50 for a hardware upgrade to access the latest Full Self-Driving (FSD) software. This request not only contradicts the original promise made by Tesla at the time of my vehicle's purchase but also seems to undermine the trust and loyalty of your customers.

I purchased my Tesla in 2017, influenced heavily by Tesla's assurance that "All Teslas built today have the hardware required for full self-driving." This statement was a significant factor in my decision to choose Tesla over other brands, as it represented a commitment to future-proofing the technology in the vehicles sold. However, the recent demand for additional payment to upgrade the hardware, which is essential to utilize the FSD software that my car should already be capable of running, is both disheartening and misleading.

My vehicle's firmware is nearly two years old, and the car itself is approaching seven years in age. The necessity to upgrade to MCU2 hardware to access features that were promised to be accessible with my vehicle's original configuration is, frankly, unacceptable. It is not just a matter of additional cost; it is a matter of principle and the trust that I, as a consumer, placed in Tesla and its promises.

Therefore, I am formally requesting that Tesla honor its original commitment by providing the necessary MCU2 hardware upgrade to my vehicle at no additional cost. This action would not only rectify the current situation but also reinforce Tesla's reputation for customer satisfaction and loyalty.

I have always advocated for Tesla's vision and innovative approach to automotive technology. However, this experience has significantly impacted my view and may influence my future purchasing decisions, as well as the advice I offer to peers when considering Tesla products.

I trust that Tesla will address this issue promptly and favorably. I look forward to your response and a resolution that upholds the values and customer commitment that Tesla is known for.Thank you for your attention to this matter.

Sincerely,

 

[MP3Mike]

3rd step, small claims...I'll check back with you all in a month or two.

They say you have FSDb, just that it is v10.x. I don't think Tesla ever said all vehicles will always be able to run the most current version of everything. What argument will you use for why you should get a newer version of FSDb?