That's a good point. The "fast refueling" condition (as well as the range stuff) was clearly added to give HFCVs an advantage. One would think that battery swap capable should be enough to satisfy it.
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Hydrogen vs. Battery
- Thread starter siry
- Start date
JRP3
Hyperactive Member
This has more to do with legislation than acceptance. I think 10-15 minute fast charges of affordable 150-200 mile range cars gets most people on the band wagon. Move it to 300-400 mile range and it's all over but the shouting.
The fast refueling levels are:
Level 3: Replace 95 miles of UDDS ZEV range in <= 10 minutes ( or have greater than 200 miles range )
Level 4: Replace 190 miles of range in <= 15 minutes
Level 5: Replace 285 miles of range in <= 15 minutes
Assuming 320 miles of range is achieved by an 85 kWhr battery
A zero loss 90 kW charger will replace 56 miles of range in 10 minutes.
You need at least 151 kW to hit the Level 3 benchmark of 95 miles per 10 minutes.
You need at least 202 kW to hit the level 4 benchmark.
You need 303 kW to hit the level 5 benchmark.
The 160 mile range Model S will not be a level 3 car, but the 230+ will.
If I were Tesla I would be explore engineering a sub 15 minute battery swap just to meet the requirement. Would it qualify if you did that and built exactly one battery swap station?
The fuel cell lobby will keep getting the rules changed to suit them.
Level 3: Replace 95 miles of UDDS ZEV range in <= 10 minutes ( or have greater than 200 miles range )
Level 4: Replace 190 miles of range in <= 15 minutes
Level 5: Replace 285 miles of range in <= 15 minutes
Assuming 320 miles of range is achieved by an 85 kWhr battery
A zero loss 90 kW charger will replace 56 miles of range in 10 minutes.
You need at least 151 kW to hit the Level 3 benchmark of 95 miles per 10 minutes.
You need at least 202 kW to hit the level 4 benchmark.
You need 303 kW to hit the level 5 benchmark.
The 160 mile range Model S will not be a level 3 car, but the 230+ will.
If I were Tesla I would be explore engineering a sub 15 minute battery swap just to meet the requirement. Would it qualify if you did that and built exactly one battery swap station?
The fuel cell lobby will keep getting the rules changed to suit them.
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stopcrazypp
Well-Known Member
I find it really funny people seem to have double standards when it comes to hydrogen fast fueling. Generally for battery swapping people complain about lack of swap stations and the cost. They don't tend to do the same for hydrogen stations. I guess it is because the companies managed to convince people the stations are very similar to gas stations and requires minimal changes (I've seen people who said you can just swap in hydrogen without changing the pumps).
I wonder if what richkae mentions will work for Tesla. Just add 15 minute swap capability and build one single swap station. That'll allow the 230/300 mile Model S to get 5 or 7 credits.
Notice that without "fast charging" there is no credit benefit to building a BEV with more than 200 miles of UDDS (aka LA4) range.
But looking at the volumes, there may be a lot of excess credits from Nissan: they only need to sell about 800 credits worth per year, they are selling way more than that. And with most manufacturers having at least one "CARB play" EV, the credits may become moot overall.
JRP3
Hyperactive Member
I think you nailed it, a hydrogen fill up seems familiar to people even though going to a filling station of any type is actually less convenient than plugging in at home, though it does offer that "instant" gratification of range.
JRP3
Hyperactive Member
Wow. Too bad batteries don't have enough energy density to allow cars to go 250-300 miles on a charge, oh wait, they do.
Except that it requires massive amounts of electricity, 4X as much as an electric car. Which we can readily produce from, uh, ???
So having eliminated most of the major hurdles, we are left only with daunting hurdles:
Other than the fact that it's an invisible and extremely explosive gas.
stopcrazypp
Well-Known Member
Plus it's going to be driven daily by customers who bought the vehicle, not some concept/fleet/leased vehicle no one can buy and only driven by a select few.
Ugh, that stupid "most common element" argument; completely irrelevant. And for the "It can be created in large quantities by almost any country" argument; electricity IS created in large quantities by almost EVERY country. So electricity is MORE democratic than hydrogen.
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The truth doesn't always win, the best technology doesn't always win.
My fear:
The hydrogen lobby is going to go to the U.S. government and ask for billions to build hydrogen fueling infrastructure, and they are going to ask for a big tax credit for FCVs and to cancel the EV tax credit.
Because hydrogen is so inefficient - the money they ask for will dwarf the tiny amount of money spent on EV infrastructure and subsidies.
They will have the lobbying money of the world's most powerful corporations behind them ( oil companies ).
They will spread a FUD campaign against EVs and try to delay EV adoption, and sabotage the EV infrastructure.
The only way to stop them is for millions of EVs to reach the market before they are ready.
My fear:
The hydrogen lobby is going to go to the U.S. government and ask for billions to build hydrogen fueling infrastructure, and they are going to ask for a big tax credit for FCVs and to cancel the EV tax credit.
Because hydrogen is so inefficient - the money they ask for will dwarf the tiny amount of money spent on EV infrastructure and subsidies.
They will have the lobbying money of the world's most powerful corporations behind them ( oil companies ).
They will spread a FUD campaign against EVs and try to delay EV adoption, and sabotage the EV infrastructure.
The only way to stop them is for millions of EVs to reach the market before they are ready.
JRP3
Hyperactive Member
dhrivnak
Active Member
Fast charging
I think the main reason many people think they prefer hydrogen to electricity is currently electricity is slow and people want to fill up and go.
I wonder if with a combination of batteries/capacitors if a station could fill a car quickly and then recharge itself over time. I believe Nissan is working on such a charger.
The vast majority of level 2 chargers now installed are limited to 7.2 kw. So to recharge a Model S translates to a 10 hour stop. While most driving is close to home, most people also vacation or visit family over 300 miles away. Proposed cars and charging just will not allow a road trip. When fast DC chargers come on line at convenient places, like Cracker Barrel, then the paradigm will change.
My wife would never consider replacing her Prius with an electric as she cannot use an electric to visit her parents 650 miles away or go to the beach at 450 miles. At least not until there is much better charging in place.
I think the main reason many people think they prefer hydrogen to electricity is currently electricity is slow and people want to fill up and go.
I wonder if with a combination of batteries/capacitors if a station could fill a car quickly and then recharge itself over time. I believe Nissan is working on such a charger.
The vast majority of level 2 chargers now installed are limited to 7.2 kw. So to recharge a Model S translates to a 10 hour stop. While most driving is close to home, most people also vacation or visit family over 300 miles away. Proposed cars and charging just will not allow a road trip. When fast DC chargers come on line at convenient places, like Cracker Barrel, then the paradigm will change.
My wife would never consider replacing her Prius with an electric as she cannot use an electric to visit her parents 650 miles away or go to the beach at 450 miles. At least not until there is much better charging in place.
Norbert
TSLA will win
Hopefully the numbers possible with Tesla's 90 kW Supercharger will be able to come to the foreground of public attention, and the small elegant connector, amongst all the buzz about standards.
JRP3
Hyperactive Member
One possible way to speed charging is to use pulse charging. The brief pauses in charging actually allows the cell to take a charge faster when it resumes and lower localized heating. Talking about megahertz pulsing I think.
Adm
Active Member
Ok, I need some help. I am only a pseudo nerd and my scientific talents are limited.
Prof. Dr.-Ing. Wolfgang Arlt claims(1) he has found the solution for many hydrogen problems. He claims he can chemically stick hydrogen molecules to N-Ethylcarbazole molecules. This is a liquid which can absorb 58 kg of hydrogen per cubic meter. This would mean one could pump it like gas without the need to pressurize it like hydrogen.
He claims it requires 2,8 kWh to “enrich” 1 kg carbazole with hydrogen.
Now without troubling my mind with the how of “enriching” and splitting the mixture in the car I see an efficiency problem here which is mind boggling when I am right and quite embarrassing if I am wrong.
I understand that a hydrogen car uses about 10 gr. hydrogen per KM(2).
I understand that 1000 liters carbazole equals about 1070 kg(3)
1 kg carbazole would than contain 58/1070 = 54 grams hydrogen
54 grams hydrogen will last 5,4 km
5,4 km would thus cost 2,8 kWh just to enrich the carbazole
2,8 kWh in an electric car would last 14 km (5 km/kWh)
Is it this simple???
I see many more practical problems, but this caught my eye.
(1) Carbazol: Das elektrische Benzin? - ELEKTOR.de | Elektronik: Analog Digital Embedded Mikrocontroller Audio Messtechnik
(2) Honda FCX Clarity - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
(3) 86-28-2, N-Ethylcarbazole, CAS No 86-28-2 N-Ethylcarbazole nl
Prof. Dr.-Ing. Wolfgang Arlt claims(1) he has found the solution for many hydrogen problems. He claims he can chemically stick hydrogen molecules to N-Ethylcarbazole molecules. This is a liquid which can absorb 58 kg of hydrogen per cubic meter. This would mean one could pump it like gas without the need to pressurize it like hydrogen.
He claims it requires 2,8 kWh to “enrich” 1 kg carbazole with hydrogen.
Now without troubling my mind with the how of “enriching” and splitting the mixture in the car I see an efficiency problem here which is mind boggling when I am right and quite embarrassing if I am wrong.
I understand that a hydrogen car uses about 10 gr. hydrogen per KM(2).
I understand that 1000 liters carbazole equals about 1070 kg(3)
1 kg carbazole would than contain 58/1070 = 54 grams hydrogen
54 grams hydrogen will last 5,4 km
5,4 km would thus cost 2,8 kWh just to enrich the carbazole
2,8 kWh in an electric car would last 14 km (5 km/kWh)
Is it this simple???
I see many more practical problems, but this caught my eye.
(1) Carbazol: Das elektrische Benzin? - ELEKTOR.de | Elektronik: Analog Digital Embedded Mikrocontroller Audio Messtechnik
(2) Honda FCX Clarity - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
(3) 86-28-2, N-Ethylcarbazole, CAS No 86-28-2 N-Ethylcarbazole nl
SByer
'08 #383
And, while we're wondering things, I've not yet heard anything about how the efficiency of hydrogen extraction changes with the rate at which it's extracted. Current hydrogen stations are (at least) an order of magnitude off the production needed - I doubt the already inefficient extraction process gets better with scale, but I couldn't find anything on the web.
It would be so sad to get rid of the current waste of real estate represented by gas stations only to substitute it with another waste. I always like (ha) how the hydrogen infrastructure estimates play off the base assumption that station filling capabilities will match that of gas stations - yet we haven't seen anybody explain how (without delivery trucks, but that's a disaster waiting to happen).
It would be so sad to get rid of the current waste of real estate represented by gas stations only to substitute it with another waste. I always like (ha) how the hydrogen infrastructure estimates play off the base assumption that station filling capabilities will match that of gas stations - yet we haven't seen anybody explain how (without delivery trucks, but that's a disaster waiting to happen).
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