Hydrogen vs. Battery

[vfx]

Why Fuel-Cell Vehicles May Replace Battery Vehicles As The Cleantech Poster Boy - Seeking Alpha
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Anyone know why the comments disappeared?

 

[Norbert]

Anyone know why the comments disappeared?

There seem to be 35 comments right now. Have there been more?

EDIT: BTW, isn't the energy efficiency battery vs hydro more like three times more efficient?

 

[JRP3]

Seeking Alpha often has glitches, things disappear, then reappear, for no reason.

 

[dpeilow]

Seeking Alpha often has glitches, things disappear, then reappear, for no reason.

Like hydrogen fuel cells then...

 

[vfx]

Yep, it's back.

 

[doug]

BTW, isn't the energy efficiency battery vs [hydrogen] more like three times more efficient?

I worked through the calculation somewhere before (probably in this thread). The answer is, of course, it depends...

• Well-to-wheels, BEV is three to four times more efficient than HFCV if the hydrogen is produced through electrolysis and assuming the same source of electricity as used to charge the BEV.

• If, however, the hydrogen is produced through SMR at the refinery and the electricity to charge the BEV comes from a natural gas power plant (basically both sourced through natural gas), then the well-to-wheels efficiency is roughly the same. Minor tweaks in the assumptions can push it one way or the other, but it's basically close.

So often you'll hear hydrogen advocates say that HFCVs are as efficient as BEVs, which is conditionally true. But once they mention production through renewable energy, their efficiency comparison becomes immediately false and they lose to BEVs by a factor of three.

 

[vfx]

...So often you'll hear hydrogen advocates say that HFCVs are as efficient as BEVs, which is conditionally true....

These same people leave out that they are essentially the middleman that converts an energy source to an energy carrier and charge you for it over and over. With a BEV you have already paid for the carrier with the car so you can just pay for the source directly.

 

[Norbert]

I worked through the calculation somewhere before (probably in this thread). The answer is, of course, it depends...

• Well-to-wheels, BEV is three to four times more efficient than HFCV if the hydrogen is produced through electrolysis and assuming the same source of electricity as used to charge the BEV.

• If, however, the hydrogen is produced through SMR at the refinery and the electricity to charge the BEV comes from a natural gas power plant (basically both sourced through natural gas), then the well-to-wheels efficiency is roughly the same. Minor tweaks in the assumptions can push it one way or the other, but it's basically close.

So often you'll hear hydrogen advocates say that HFCVs are as efficient as BEVs, which is conditionally true. But once they mention production through renewable energy, their efficiency comparison becomes immediately false and they lose to BEVs by a factor of three.

Thanks for digging into it! 3-4 times (when using source-neutral electricity) was also the number I remember from elsewhere. This speaks strongly in favor of BEVs, and increases the importance of a combined argument for renewable energy and EVs. Fortunately it appears that solar reaches grid parity in about the same time frame as (B)EV technology starts to become relevant for the mass-market.

 

[TEG]

Gasoline-Powered Fuel Cell To Fix Electric-Car Range Anxiety?

 

[TEG]

DEPARTMENT OF ENERGY - Wheels Blog - NYTimes.com

...Toyota FCV-R concept, a hydrogen fuel-cell vehicle...

FCV-R | The 42nd Tokyo Motor Show 2011

 

[Robert.Boston]

Why does everyone assume that there is an unlimited supply of fresh water? There are serious concerns about potable water becoming the next scarce resource over which wars are fought.

 

[doug]

Why does everyone assume that there is an unlimited supply of fresh water? There are serious concerns about potable water becoming the next scarce resource over which wars are fought.

?? You don't need fresh water for electrolysis, if that's what you're implying.

 

[Robert.Boston]

Need, no, but running salt water through anything substantially increases costs and unit degradation.

 

[Norbert]

Why does everyone assume that there is an unlimited supply of fresh water? There are serious concerns about potable water becoming the next scarce resource over which wars are fought.

+1 (as a general point).

 

[dpeilow]

CellEra's Platinum-Free Fuel Cells Win $9.2M in VC : Greentech Media

Fuel cells have the unique ability to strip hydrogen atoms of their electrons and venture capitalists of their money.



Since the beginning of fuel cell technology in the mid-nineteenth century, not a single commercial, pure-play fuel cell company has had a profitable year.*

 

[VolkerP]

It looks like a 3 piston row engine... Surely they can make a V6?

 

[Johncho]

Fuel cells have the unique ability to strip hydrogen atoms of their electrons and venture capitalists of their money.



Since the beginning of fuel cell technology in the mid-nineteenth century, not a single commercial, pure-play fuel cell company has had a profitable year.*

This. I'm afraid we have a long way to go before we see this technology commercially available on a large scale.

 

[Adm]

Maybe this has been posted here before, but I found some information on efficiency in hydrogen fueling station. Hydrogenics produces electrolysis based fueling stations. These stations can produce 1kg of hydrogen using 65kWh electricity. A Honda Clarity FCX can drive 60mi on 1 kg of hydrogen resulting in almost 1,1 kWh/mi.

http://www.hydrogenics.com/assets/pdfs/Fueling%20Station_English.pdf
http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/fcv_sbs.shtml

 

[dpeilow]

That confirms other sources, both theoretical and practical. In fact it is slightly worse that another electrolyser I saw, but the same ballpark.

Now you see why people here are so anti-hydrogen. May as well drive a Ferrari for its green attributes.

 

[richkae]

Ferrari's are green because if everybody in the world that wanted a car could only buy a Ferrari - there would be about 1000x less cars in the world. Thats would mean that gasoline consumption would go down by probably 300x and likewise would carbon emissions from cars. Ferrari's are green!